1 2 Previous Next 15 Replies Latest reply: May 4, 2012 4:59 PM by jgarry RSS

    Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College

    Girish Sharma
      Yes, this is not a db related technical question, but still I would like to take the chance to get great replies by members.

      One of my friend is planning to open an Oracle Training Institute (DBA Track) in my city (population 10 millions). At the moment the construction work is going on the site and we hope the institute will be operational by July-Aug 2012.

      I just want to see your suggestation for :
      1.From where we will get the study material/syllabus for students ?
      2.Will oracle/Oracle University provide us any help or guidelines ?
      3.Is there any kind of network/group of oracle training institute ?
      4.what you will most suggest(apart from docs reading) to students ?
      5.Guideline for good environment to studends for concrete studies ?
      I suggested my friend that you should not take the approach of institute, rather you should have a vision of oracle school, where studends will get oracle knowledge in the level i.e. L1,L2,L3,L4 with half and yearly online exam pattern. I mean a student will take admission in L1 level, he/she will study and practice whole the year as
      L1 DBA in the industry.

      I know, we can get plenty of teachers by calling an advertisement in news paper and/or by hiring a consultancy company, but main issue is what should be a complete syllabus and exam pattern for all the 4 levels so that studends and teachers should remain smart busy whole the year in their studies and practices.

      What is your opinion on this whole picture, just share your thoughts.

      Regards
      Girish Sharma
        • 1. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
          Aman....
          From where we will get the study material/syllabus for students
          There is no material available for free use. If you are going to maintain a training facility, its you who have to write down the material by yourself.
          Will oracle/Oracle University provide us any help or guidelines
          Oracle wont provide anything to you freely. There are paid programs from Oracle that you may want to look at, which would be requiring you to pay Oracle fee and in return, the material for the enrolled students would come from Oracle. Check,
          Oracle Workforce Development Program
          https://workforce.oracle.com/pls/wdp/new_home.main
          Oracle Education Reseller
          http://www.oracle.com/partners/en/how-to-do-business/distribution-agreements/education-reseller-069934.html
          s there any kind of network/group of oracle training institute ?
          I am not sure that there is any thing like that officially available but since neither I am a part of any such facility nor run one myself so I am not the right person for the answer of this.
          what you will most suggest(apart from docs reading) to students ?
          A dry answer would be, but I would rather let the students concentrate on reading and finishing the material given by you or by Oracle than making them read 10 different books at one time. As someone is starting, its better to stay focused on learning from one source and then explore different things.
          Guideline for good environment to studends for concrete studies ?
          Again a dry answer it would be. In my experience, no matter what you would end up doing, at the end, after few weeks/months, the whole vibe of "making good environment" is overshadowed by "getting the money and let the business run" because, at the end of the day, you are not going to open it for public service, it would be a business. So looking into this, you would be the best judge to decide this IMO. At times, even while giving the best state-of-the-art facilty , you don't get people/students who value it much and it ends being a wasted effort and at times, even with no such "special" effort done, one manages to sail through smoothly.

          Aman....
          • 2. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
            Girish Sharma
            Aman,

            I am really thankful to you for your reply and such useful links.
            There is no material available for free use. If you are going to maintain a training facility, its you who have to write down the material by yourself.
            Yes, and moreover it should not be free, because after all we are going to use it as commercially so why it should be free. I just don't have any idea that what should be topics in all L1 to L4 classes roughly. If I am able to divide the whole course in +-4 parts, then next steps comes in picture for writing the material/chapter.  So, first question is what topics should be for L1 classes, so that a newbie student (who never hear anything about Oracle) can get the clear picture of ABCD of Oracle db software.  Ok, suppose if someone says me then what is purpose of 2 day dba guide/why don't you give this guide's pdf printed copies, so my humble reply would be "but that can not be used as a study material in a classroom because its a clear cut violation of rule"
            This software and related documentation are provided under a license agreement containing restrictions on use and disclosure and are protected by intellectual property laws. Except as expressly permitted in your license agreement or allowed by law, you may not use, copy, reproduce, translate, broadcast, modify, license, transmit, distribute, exhibit, perform, publish, or display any part, in any form, or by any means. Reverse engineering, disassembly, or decompilation of this software, unless required by law for interoperability, is prohibited.
            http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E11882_01/server.112/e10897/title.htm

            Meanwhile, i am trying to explore the possibilities from the links which you provided. I will sit with my friend to discuss about these links.
            the whole vibe of "making good environment" is overshadowed by "getting the money and let the business run"
            Its true that every new business man/house advertise that "I will follow honesty is the best policy" or "My purpose is to trained the good Oracle students" etc. etc. but Sir, my action plan is bit different here. You are right that as a business man, I would be interested in the increasing revenue, but It can not be long lasting :
            1.If our students are not satisfied by our training.
            2.If our students are job-less after completion of L4 level.
            3.There is no quality testing of training.

            I am 100% agree with you people don't care about studies, they just want a short-cut/dump/SuccessSyrup so, for them, we can't do anything, we will continue on our vision "Great Oracle Education".

            Obviously, there is no "Insurance of Success", but "Assurance of Success".

            Aha...It seems, I am advertising here for my company (which has no existence yet)... but no, please don't take anyone like this. I am just talking with my best Guru 90%,friend 10% i.e. Aman.

            Regards
            Girish Sharma
            • 3. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
              Aman....
              Girish,

              Based on the experience that I have in this field, I would suggest you to think and then re-think both the business and educational models of yours. You are saying that there would be 4 different levels of education, from L1 to L4 and I believe, after each level, there would be an exam which one has to pass. So if I understand correctly, after passing the L4 level, the person can be called a Super Senior DBA or something of the same sort, right? Now, first question, what sort of things you are thinking to put in the L3,L4 course(s) and how are you going to ensure that clearing an exam would confirm that the person can claim to be a master or specialist in the database that he can now work on the top tier of the database administration work? Second, how would you make sure that the all the changes that are going to come in the future releaes AND in all the patchsets plus with all/any PSU's would be there in the curriculum since that can be quite a game changer in some areas, for example, optimizer, RAC? And if you have this in mind, how about the different hardware specs that are used worldwide , for storage, network and other parts? Will that be a part of the infrastructure besides the ususal stuff like a desktop? If yes, would you be teaching that also? How about the instructors? Who is going to ensure/check/verify that they know what they are talking about, teaching the right stuff than just quoting the quotes from Google and are coping up with all the changes that are coming in all the laetst releases, not to mention the other attributes like communication skills and so on. And as you mentioned job, how would you ensure that your students, who have passed your course, would indeed getting a DBA or Developer job (important word is "indeed") ?

              Now, that was all about the educational part. Let's talk business now. You are going to offer a course for an year which means, the first batch , as long as wont leave, there wont be any place for the new students, which means the revenue would come once in a year. So are you making the facility to run course(s) for few hundred students? If yes, do you have the idea about the costs that would come in running the facility in such model and the most important part, how much profit that you are going to make to let this facility continue and grow?

              The last point from me, if I would be a student, my first and most important question to you would be, why I should come to you and not go to Oracle University which gives a 100% satisfaction gurantee of the customer's satisfaction, have all the material very nicely written and available, have all teh courses and would be getting all the courses in the first place than anyone else on the planet , the instructors are top notch and so would be the facility and the overall experience? And above all, why I should spend money over your courses when its mandatory by Oracle that to get the certification, one MUST attend the courses from either Oracle Univ directly or from its partners and its worth to mention that some courses are ONLY conducted by ORacle University .

              I believe, you must think hard before you step into the business. Its a long and hard road and at times, even unwillingly one is forced to take decisions which doesn't comply with the initial mission statement. I do hope that it all works out well for you and your partner but don't be assured as there is no "assurance of success" that one can give to anyone.

              Regards
              Aman....
              • 4. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                Girish Sharma
                Aman,

                I am one again thankful to you for such a good reply indeed. As I promised you that I shall talk with my friend regarding business setup. I showed him the links which you provided above and we found that for WDP one must have affiliation with their local educational department; so it seems to me that WDP is not for new institutions (my understanding though). Even, I have written a mail to the ID which I found somewhere there, but reply is still waiting.

                Second, the issues/challenges which you are quoting are also there i.e. course material, exam pattern, instructor's knowledge level, cost calculation etc. etc., so keeping in view of these challenges; I not sure that we would be able to go for training business, even though we have thought on data processing business too, but my first suggestation was opening a good oracle training college to him, which now seems to me bit unplanned/many issues, because what I dream that in our college a pass student should be as much capable as the level he/she passed; i.e. great education and great education can be provided by great teachers. Now question is, if person is having a wonderful knowledge in Oracle technologies, will he/she be a teacher ? Companies will fetch them by attraction of higher salaries. They will never find happy in an educational institution because "other" is ready to give "more" than us. This another great threat to the educational business; I am not sure, how in other big cities educational institution's proprietor are managing this issue (may be equal salary)...Anyway...

                But, i see couple of lines in your last reply i.e. :
                and how are you going to ensure that clearing an exam would confirm that the person can claim to be a master or specialist in the database that he can now work on the top tier of the database administration work?
                So, does it mean every student of OU student have answer(s) to this and other questions which you have raised ? If yes, then I shall suggest each person to go to OU, which meets me for sure and if no, then it mean in many lines.
                why I should come to you and not go to Oracle University which gives a 100% satisfaction gurantee
                Personally, I never visited OU nor any its partner's institution but for me satisfaction means knowledge, a knowledge which makes a person a real DBA, Oracle DBA... and I don't think that getting and giving such knowledge in a 2 or 5 days is impossible.. God knows how can I learn PT in 2 or 5 days even in OU; at least I can't. For me understanding library cache is the course of at least 1 months i.e. L3 course.

                But yes, our "CBO" is still calculating the "cost" of "query" from this tough and un-tuned "DB".... :-)

                Let us see, what the cost it returns...!

                Regards
                Girish Sharma
                • 5. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                  Aman....
                  >
                  But, i see couple of lines in your last reply i.e. :
                  and how are you going to ensure that clearing an exam would confirm that the person can claim to be a master or specialist in the database that he can now work on the top tier of the database administration work?
                  So, does it mean every student of OU student have answer(s) to this and other questions which you have raised ? If yes, then I shall suggest each person to go to OU, which meets me for sure and if no, then it mean in many lines.
                  You are missing the point here Girish. Oracle never "claims" with their courses that they are making you a "master" in that module rather the first statement given by most of the instructors is that the said course would get you "started" and here are some some further steps that you have to take. So the assurance of quality is NOT for this that you are going to come as a novice and go out as a RAC specialist but you would be knowing a lot that's not covered in most of the market books and definitely not in any 3rd party, self maintained training facilties. Because its not just the material but its also the lab exercises which are a huge bonus point. When you have played with a feature good enough, you know what it is all about, don't you?
                  why I should come to you and not go to Oracle University which gives a 100% satisfaction gurantee
                  Personally, I never visited OU nor any its partner's institution but for me satisfaction means knowledge, a knowledge which makes a person a real DBA, Oracle DBA... and I don't think that getting and giving such knowledge in a 2 or 5 days is impossible.. God knows how can I learn PT in 2 or 5 days even in OU; at least I can't. For me understanding library cache is the course of at least 1 months i.e. L3 course.
                  Now, I shall be a little dry in the answer here. If you think its not possible in 5 days with 8 hours per day, let me make a blunt claim that it won't be possible even after a year's training as well because there is far too much that's there to learn and explore , with most of that stuff not "documented" anywhere. Learning Performance in the OU class doesn't mean that you are going to come out as a Performance Tuning specialist and with a single look, you would be able to track the issue and suggest the solution but rather, you would be knowing a lot which is needed to get started, for example, what's a wait event, what does it mean by Hard Parse and why its bad. You must understand, not everyone would be interested to know what's deep down there in the Library Cache and neither this is going to be very helpful in a day to day job of a dba too. How many people you know who own an automobile know every single thing about its engine and the know-hows to open and tweak it in their homes? They know what they are needed to know, to drive that automobile and even the mechanics who try to tweak the issues of the engines are not going to be knowing completely about it. May be not a very good example but that explains it well. If you are expecting that either Oracle University or anyone would be teaching from step A to Z of RAC, you are mistaken since they won't, in fact no one would. Its a long journey which you have to travel all by yourself. What you are going to be learning in that class is how to "walk" .

                  Regards
                  Aman....
                  But yes, our "CBO" is still calculating the "cost" of "query" from this tough and un-tuned "DB".... :-)

                  Let us see, what the cost it returns...!

                  Regards
                  Girish Sharma
                  • 6. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                    Girish Sharma
                    @ Readers :
                    Please be cautious before reading this thread, my humble request is that don't make any conclusion that either I am bit attacking on OU courses or have any intention (moreover I can't), because when I have already said that I never attended OU, so how can I say that OU courses are best/worst. I am just trying to understand the things with Aman's great support and replies.
                    You are missing the point here Girish. Oracle never "claims" with their courses that they are making you a "master" in that module rather the first statement given by most of the instructors is that the said course would get you "started" and here are some some further steps that you have to take. So the assurance of quality is NOT for this that you are going to come as a novice and go out as a RAC specialist but you would be knowing a lot that's not covered in most of the market books and definitely not in any 3rd party, self maintained training facilties. Because its not just the material but its also the lab exercises which are a huge bonus point. When you have played with a feature good enough, you know what it is all about, don't you?
                    Hmm, this makes sense. OU course are not "master", rather they are "started". Now I am easy that there is no "stick of magic" in OU which will make me expert in PT or any other module. They will give me those answers which I couldn't found in docs or not able to understand from docs/great books.
                    Now, I shall be a little dry in the answer here. If you think its not possible in 5 days with 8 hours per day, let me make a blunt claim that it won't be possible even after a year's training as well because there is far too much that's there to learn and explore , with most of that stuff not "documented" anywhere. Learning Performance in the OU class doesn't mean that you are going to come out as a Performance Tuning specialist and with a single look, you would be able to track the issue and suggest the solution but rather, you would be knowing a lot which is needed to get started, for example, what's a wait event, what does it mean by Hard Parse and why its bad. You must understand, not everyone would be interested to know what's deep down there in the Library Cache and neither this is going to be very helpful in a day to day job of a dba too. How many people you know who own an automobile know every single thing about its engine and the know-hows to open and tweak it in their homes? They know what they are needed to know, to drive that automobile and even the mechanics who try to tweak the issues of the engines are not going to be knowing completely about it. May be not a very good example but that explains it well. If you are expecting that either Oracle University or anyone would be teaching from step A to Z of RAC, you are mistaken since they won't, in fact no one would. Its a long journey which you have to travel all by yourself. What you are going to be learning in that class is how to "walk" .
                    Here you have raised great points that a person will never be 100% known for each bits/terms of library cache (for example) even after year's training, "because neither this is going to be very helpful in a day to day job of a dba too". So one line conclusion is "go for that knowledge which a DBA is supposed to, not a scientist/oracle Phd. is supposed" right sir?

                    Aman, but here discussion is bit diverted... am I correct ?

                    Regards
                    Girish Sharma
                    • 7. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                      Aman....
                      Any training facility , IMO can only do what it literally means-train you and get you started. If you are a medical student and learn how to operate on heart in your college, doesn't mean that you can right away be there in a trauma center and can do a bypass surgery. But you would be knowing what happens in it and when you would be assisting someone, he would be able to polish those theoretical bits with the practical tips. That's all what training means and I understand about it. OU is the best resource for getting Oracle technologies because one, its going to get the material which is written , edited and reviewed by the masters in that technology and when I say masters, it really means masters and 2nd, for certain exams , its must for you to attend the courses from OU, doesn't matter what. 3rd and last would be , as I already mentioned, the hands-on lab experience given in the OU classrooms , especially for the higher-end modules like RAC etc is unmatched any where else.
                      Here you have raised great points that a person will never be 100% known for each bits/terms of library cache (for example) even after year's training, "because neither this is going to be very helpful in a day to day job of a dba too". So one line conclusion is "go for that knowledge which a DBA is supposed to, not a scientist/oracle Phd. is supposed" right sir?
                      Yes, but there can be a constant learning mode in which a person can choose to be and after few years, can actually be at the level so high which would be difficult to touch by many others. Our mentors and the greatest guru's of Oracle db world like Hemant Chitale, Jonathan Lewis , Tom Kyte, Hans Forbrich , Mark Bobak and a long list follows, the Oak Table members, all are the proof that if one is determined, its not an unachieveable dream to become a real master one day! But its certainly not a matter of few months or weeks, that's what my point was.

                      Regards
                      Aman....
                      • 8. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                        UweHesse
                        My advice: Better not try to compete against Oracle University on our own territory. I have seen many competitors come and go - it's a very tough business.

                        Kind regards
                        Uwe Hesse

                        http://uhesse.com
                        • 9. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                          Girish Sharma
                          Uwe Hesse wrote:
                          My advice: Better not try to compete against Oracle University on our own territory. I have seen many competitors come and go - it's a very tough business.
                          No, I can't dare, can't dream to compete against OU. Thats why in my very first post i requested something like this :
                          2.Will oracle/Oracle University provide us any help or guidelines ?
                          I just had/have a business idea that was/is sharing with my friend for his new business setup. He just told me to go for data processing business, while I suggested him to go for a good Oracle training institute. A good oracle training institute which is not actually an institute, rather a college, where a student will take admission for a complete study of db software for max 4 years. But, when I raised here and got wonderful replies by Aman, now picture is going clear, now I am understanding that why our "CBO" is taking time to calculate the "cost".

                          Thank you very much for your reply and time given to my request.

                          Regards
                          Girish Sharma
                          • 10. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                            jgarry
                            I have no figures, but I have seen a number of cancellations over the years for OCM testing dates, due to lack of interest.

                            I was excited when Jonathan Lewis was going to give a class right near my office, which is near a lot of tech companies, but by the time I got approval, it was cancelled for lack of interest.

                            There are individuals and small companies who give various types of training, I think their secret is to be able to quickly adapt to changing market conditions. To establish an actual institute has a high cost of entry (at least in the US), and pretty much have to have some targeted revenue stream such as government guaranteed student loans. Many smaller ones have come and gone, leaving some students on the hook for loan repayment (or having paid $thousands and got nothing). I think to start one from scratch is even harder than hanging your shingle out to start a consultancy, because you have to capitalize rent and supplies (including the coursework), for potentially a long time before you have a revenue stream. At least with a consultancy it's not as hard to find people in need of your services. With training, you have to sell someone on training, and why would they do that without buying a large app? Do you trade on their dreams?

                            I've worked for a few timeshare and service companies over the years, and that's a tough business too. You basically can't make a go of it unless you somehow manage to pick up a dozen or so customer companies quickly, and hope some large company doesn't decide to compete in your space and crush you like an ant. You can be a headhunter and arrange for stars to work, but look at the reputations headhunters have. There are a few Pythians, Enkiteks and Method-Rs in the world - but only a few, and they have key players.

                            Best job I ever had was for a service company - until they figured out it's a lot easier and more profitable to sell specific products than services or enterprise systems. They had started by picking up the stranded customers of another service company that went belly-up.
                            • 11. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                              Girish Sharma
                              Aman,

                              I am sorry, I just missed your last reply; just saw Uwe's post and replied.

                              I am 100% agree with your all lines of the reply.

                              Regards
                              Girish Sharma
                              • 12. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                                Girish Sharma
                                Hi Joel,

                                I am glad to see your post in the thread.
                                To establish an actual institute has a high cost of entry
                                fully correct, because "actual" needs money, resources and a planned strategy / time-table. Thread is going to conclude that one should not go for Oracle training institute at its own path, because when there is OU then its "no use" to have such institutes roughly. OU's infrastructure, quality of education, exam pattern and much more Oracle itself(i.e. source of technology) is behind it; makes it an ultimate institute, (what I assume though).

                                I just suggested my friend, that my is idea that why don't you go for Oracle training college under the flagship/support of OU. If at any level, we enter into a sort of agreement with OU for course ware, exam pattern, instructors etc. then students need not go to metro and here itself they can get the same quality of education on the same cost of OU, but neither I got mail reply nor I think OU will consider it (probably they have thrown my mail in dust bean)...Anyway...

                                Ok, why I thought for Oracle training institute ? Many reasons :

                                - None of college/institute which is directly affiliated with OU here.
                                - The institute which are advertising for Oracle courses are just nothing, but a 2-3 months sort of course for SQL 75% and 25% administration.
                                - People just can pay for training, but don't want to bear the expenses of metros.
                                - I know that what is satisfaction % in the students which are getting from existing institutes (rather they are not actual institutes, they are some sort of "shop")
                                - A college in which student will take admission, same like a kid takes admission in LKG/UKG, get complete and thorough knowledge for a DBA (not scientists), because scientists can't be created, they are scientists by birth; there is no training for expertise, expertise comes in due course with experience and time, but a good and sound start was the thought/vision/wish behind my that dream college/institute; which now seems going to dim or at least impossible keeping in view current challenges and resources.
                                There are individuals and small companies who give various types of training, I think their secret is to be able to quickly adapt to changing market conditions.
                                Basically they are money minded, just revenue oriented shops and I don't know the reason but I just hate money lover though. Person should earn more and more, his/her income graph should be increasing/constant, but on the ground of solid logics/layers.

                                I shall be thankful to you if you please rephrase couple of lines of your reply (but in simple English, I am same poor in English as like in Oracle) :
                                At least with a consultancy it's not as hard to find people in need of your services.
                                I am really sorry Joel, but I am not able to understand that what consultancy you are talking about here, please re-elaborate it.
                                Do you trade on their dreams?
                                timeshare and service companies
                                What are they ? Will goggle answer me... ok let me google with "timeshare and service companies"... But it would be great if I gets the defination from your view please.
                                Best job I ever had was for a service company
                                Last but same request for re-explain it please.

                                Hmm, now I just fear that moderator will lock the thread that "hey this is now enough, its no more related to any db's technical issue, and here we just come for help the people who are finding question in the supposed area, we are not business-experts, so now locking the thread"

                                But, I would like to humble request to moderator that please lock the thread, if it gets any reply which is out-of-scope from its subject line, I am just trying to figure out and answer of the question please.

                                Regards
                                Girish Sharma
                                • 13. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                                  mBk77
                                  Hi Girish,

                                  I see that there are many Institutes in my city offering Oracle dba courses for very less fee, but the thing is the quality of training these institutes provide is very bad. Apart from OU I dont see any institute have any intrest in training the students. They are just here to make money.

                                  It would be good if someone really wants to give their knowledge to others.

                                  When it comes to OU the thing is the duration oh the courses is 5 days. I think it is very tough for an average person to understand and know how to implement it in realtime in 5 days.

                                  I think if you can provide quality trining, then definetly people will come to you...

                                  Best Regards,
                                  mBk.
                                  • 14. Re: Guideline for new Oracle Training Institute/College
                                    Aman....
                                    No problem Girish :) .

                                    Aman....
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