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  • 15. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    Really can't improve on Billy's response,
    By thes I see you see DBA as a fixer of someones human errors, design mistakes, ignorance of good programming techniques etc.
    I do not disagree with this. Humans did, do and will do all kinds of stupid things.
    It is a big factor (of demand on a profession). But this factor also decreases with time.
    Some inexperienced DBA could set wrong memory parameters in 9i. In 11g he does not need to understand much how instance's memory works. Just set AMM and forget. From such little things Oracle is building self-managed RDBMS. There is less and less place to make human's errors.
    First, the overall message of the above is "technology advances". Sure. Nobody disputes that. But that's a far cry from making a case that the general role of DBA's will become obsolete in the near to mid future.
    Ok. Could you define what exactly is "the general role of DBA"?
    And what is the near and mid future?
    the guy who ruined a perfectly good car because he was too stupid to believe that changing the oil mattered
    I like this example! :)
    that is why a "good car" should monitor and maintain itself.
    First cars did not tell you anything about oil in it. Driver should understand to check and change oil. Yesterday's cars showed oil pressure and temperature on dashboard. Driver should understand what these metrics mean.
    Today's "good" cars start flashing maintenance light and some ones even will not start if there is no or bad oil. Driver should understand to go or call a service. Tomorrow's cars will run itself to a service in time. Driver should understand nothing. :)
    The Progress is going a way that things become less and less depend on human folly, the more and more things are automated and require less and less human's understanding.
    Similar applicable to RDBMS. It is where Oracle goes.
    I am eager to see 12c and what self-management features it will offer. To compare it to 11g and 10g. To see how fast Oracle progresses in this direction.
  • 16. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    EdStevens Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    user11181920 wrote:
    Really can't improve on Billy's response,
    By thes I see you see DBA as a fixer of someones human errors, design mistakes, ignorance of good programming techniques etc.
    I do not disagree with this. Humans did, do and will do all kinds of stupid things.
    It is a big factor (of demand on a profession). But this factor also decreases with time.
    Some inexperienced DBA could set wrong memory parameters in 9i. In 11g he does not need to understand much how instance's memory works. Just set AMM and forget. From such little things Oracle is building self-managed RDBMS. There is less and less place to make human's errors.
    I wasn't talking about errors introduced by DBAs. I was talkling about the problems introduced by others .. or by failing hardware. No matter where the problem lies, it seems to always start with 'the database is down, call the DBA'
    >
    First, the overall message of the above is "technology advances". Sure. Nobody disputes that. But that's a far cry from making a case that the general role of DBA's will become obsolete in the near to mid future.
    Ok. Could you define what exactly is "the general role of DBA"?
    "Whatever it takes to keep the database healthy."

    And what is the near and mid future?
    Near is within the working lifetime of those already working. Mid is within the lifetime of those already born. In general, broad terms.
    the guy who ruined a perfectly good car because he was too stupid to believe that changing the oil mattered
    I like this example! :)
    that is why a "good car" should monitor and maintain itself.
    First cars did not tell you anything about oil in it. Driver should understand to check and change oil. Yesterday's cars showed oil pressure and temperature on dashboard. Driver should understand what these metrics mean.
    Today's "good" cars start flashing maintenance light and some ones even will not start if there is no or bad oil. Driver should understand to go or call a service. Tomorrow's cars will run itself to a service in time. Driver should understand nothing. :)
    So you just got a call that you need to come to the hospital immediately, your wife has been in a terrible accident. But your car decides, "No I need to go to the Jiffy Lube - NOW!" You should understand NOTHING!


    Or how about this one ... there have been experiments done with remote-control surgery. A doctor on one continent remotely performing an appendectomy on someone on another continent. Everyone says this will reduce the need for highly paid doctors. First, we'll have an appendectomy specialist in Chennai spending his day doing appendectomies by remote control all over the world. In the next phase we'll automate it to the point we can fire the doctor and let the robot direct itself. What a promise! What a great advance. Technology advances. IT WILL HAPPEN. Yeah, we know how to do it today. Do you want to have a robot controlled scalpel in your gut when the cleaning lady plugs her vacuum cleaner into a spare socket on the UPS, tripping a circuit breaker, causing the network link to drop packets in the few milliseconds it takes for the secondary power to kick in?

    The Progress is going a way that things become less and less depend on human folly, the more and more things are automated and require less and less human's understanding.
    Figure a way to automate around any particular human error and humans will find yet another way to confound the technology.

    Similar applicable to RDBMS. It is where Oracle goes.
    I am eager to see 12c and what self-management features it will offer. To compare it to 11g and 10g. To see how fast Oracle progresses in this direction.
    It's one thing to get excited about tech advances. It's quite another to ignore the human element.
  • 17. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Osama_Mustafa Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    Maybe you are right but everything has advantage and disadvantage

    to accomplish anything worthwhile we have to get out of our comfort zone, endure short or even long-term pain, and choose to do what is hard rather than what is easy.
    Without any doubt, at each step of the way, during each technological transformation, be it the Industrial or the Internet Revolution, there are things that are lost forever. But while some things are lost others are gained right ?
  • 18. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    I wasn't talking about errors introduced by DBAs. I was talkling about the problems introduced by others .. or by failing hardware. No matter where the problem lies, it seems to always start with 'the database is down, call the DBA'
    I agree. When the database is down DBA should be called. It is too late. However a target of self-maintenance not to allow failures. It should monitor and take proactive measures.
    How often were you called because DB is down? I do not remember. I was getting alerts from one DB from time to time that some indexes are unusable (because of SAP BI job) and I created my job that auto-fixes it (Oracle 10.2).
    Ok. Could you define what exactly is "the general role of DBA"?
    "Whatever it takes to keep the database healthy."
    Well. One broad definition instead of another.
    So you just got a call that you need to come to the hospital immediately, your wife has been in a terrible accident. But your car decides, "No I need to go to the Jiffy Lube - NOW!" You should understand NOTHING!
    Now even Windows asks for approval to reboot after it installed patches. :)
    A "smart" car can ask a permission to go for a maintenance and tell possible risks if user disagrees. It is up to user to make a decision.
    Also if the car has already went to a maintenance and emergency happened, driver can call a taxi (robo-taxi).
    Do you want to have a robot controlled scalpel in your gut when the cleaning lady plugs her vacuum cleaner into a spare socket on the UPS
    :) :)
    When robots will be able performing an appendectomy, the "cleaning ladies" will be robots too. And they, I hope, will be smarter than human ones. :)
    (even now I have one vacuum robot, it is not smart enough not to chew my cat's toys, but I hope in future they will be smarter - have eyes, tentacles and some intellect :) )

    Seriously, I do not disagree that emergencies with DB will happen. But I think it is not frequent now, with appropriate level of planning, and tends to be less frequent.
    Overall it should make a demand on a DBA lessen. Not disappear completely in near future, but reduced.
    It's one thing to get excited about tech advances. It's quite another to ignore the human element.
    Oh no. It is not ignoring the human element. It is completely different. Automation is removing the human element.

    I think we said enough to understand our points of view.
    I respect your vision, and even would be happy if everything will be your way.
    But I have mine vision (may be it is too pessimistic, and looks like a technological singularity Sci-Fi :) ).
    Time will show.
    Hopefully OP and others found some helpful points from this discussion. :)
  • 19. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    Without any doubt, at each step of the way, during each technological transformation, be it the Industrial or the Internet Revolution, there are things that are lost forever. But while some things are lost others are gained right ?
    I 100% agree. That is why I said DBA will loose many maintenance responsibilities and duties, and should get other more intellectual duties, that will effective transform DBA (as it is now) to something different: an expert level troubleshooter, data architect, DB designer, SQL/ETL developer etc... Role of DBA will shift into areas where "robots" not yet rule, speaking a Sci-Fi language ;) .
    But on these positions (excluding developer ones), there is no same demand, less heads is required.
  • 20. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    jgarry Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    >
    A "smart" car can ask a permission to go for a maintenance and tell possible risks if user disagrees. It is up to user to make a decision.
    Also if the car has already went to a maintenance and emergency happened, driver can call a taxi (robo-taxi).
    More likely, it would be the contemporary version of "putting electrical tape over the check-engine light."


    >
    Do you want to have a robot controlled scalpel in your gut when the cleaning lady plugs her vacuum cleaner into a spare socket on the UPS
    :) :)
    When robots will be able performing an appendectomy, the "cleaning ladies" will be robots too. And they, I hope, will be smarter than human ones. :)
    (even now I have one vacuum robot, it is not smart enough not to chew my cat's toys, but I hope in future they will be smarter - have eyes, tentacles and some intellect :) )
    See [url http://what-if.xkcd.com/5/]this.
  • 21. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Osama_Mustafa Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nice article
  • 22. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    jgarry wrote:

    See [url http://what-if.xkcd.com/5/]this.
    Interesting read - and I agree with that (robots aint taking over the world).

    There's another side the coin though - technological singularity. And the basic premise behind this is sound - as Moore's Law and the exponential growth/evolution of technology have proved for many decades now.

    We have decoded genomes. We have cloned animals. We have basic confirmation of the Standard Model with the discovery of the Higgs. Neural networks are becoming ever more advance and the possibility of networks equalling the complexity need to rival human intelligence ever closer. This is not happening in a linear fashion either.. it is happening faster and faster.

    I do not see a gradual transition of technology - of DBA position changing and evolving slowly over time into a new type of job. I see that staying pretty much as is. And then new technology introducing sudden, drastic, and painful changes.
  • 23. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    It is funny article. Made me smile.

    But what I was talking about is similar to a situation that caused Luddite movement.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddism
    >
    introduction of new wide-framed automated looms that could be operated by cheap, relatively unskilled labour, resulting in the loss of jobs for many skilled textile workers.
    >

    The keywords are automated and loss of jobs.
  • 24. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    I do not see a gradual transition of technology
    Just take look on Oracle's self-management features and DBA ergonomic features that appeared from version to version.
    (most is taken from http://dbamuz.wordpress.com/ , some from my memory and googling)

    v6 - (I do not remeber much) DBA had to watch for extent growing, rollback segments quantity, size and shrinking, datafile growing, configure memory areas, developers had to understand RBO to craft efficient queries... etc, etc...
    Introduced automatic Row-level locking - developer does not have to do it programmatically.

    v7 - introduced CBO, snapshots, integrity constraints, jobs, datafile autoexend

    v8 - introduced RMAN

    8i - introduced LMT, Standby Database – Auto shipping and application of redo logs, Resource Management, DBA Studio and Enterprise Manager (not really an automation, but rather an ergonomic - simplifies DBA tasks)

    9i - CBO now also consider memory and CPU, Dynamic Memory Management, Data Guard, System Managed Undo, LMT, Automatic PGA tuning

    10g - Manageability improvements (self-tuning features), Automatic SGA tuning, ASMM, AWR, ADDM, bigfile tablespaces (no need to manually add datafiles), DBMS_SCHEDULER, DB Control, Grid Control, automatic stats gathering

    11i - AMM, health monitor, Automatic Diagnostic Repository, automatic interval partitioning

    and what will be introduced in 12c?

    Edited by: user11181920 on Oct 3, 2012 12:11 PM
  • 25. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Osama_Mustafa Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    and what will be introduced in 12c?
    SQL>Create Rac add 'node1:192.168.1.1:10.0.0.1', 'node2:192.168.1.2:10.0.0.2' ;

    Cluster created

    :)
  • 26. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    EdStevens Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    user11181920 wrote:
    I do not see a gradual transition of technology
    Just take look on Oracle's self-management features and DBA ergonomic features that appeared from version to version.
    (most is taken from http://dbamuz.wordpress.com/ , some from my memory and googling)

    v6 - (I do not remeber much) DBA had to watch for extent growing, rollback segments quantity, size and shrinking, datafile growing, configure memory areas, developers had to understand RBO to craft efficient queries... etc, etc...
    Introduced automatic Row-level locking - developer does not have to do it programmatically.

    v7 - introduced CBO, snapshots, integrity constraints, jobs, datafile autoexend

    v8 - introduced RMAN

    8i - introduced LMT, Standby Database – Auto shipping and application of redo logs, Resource Management, DBA Studio and Enterprise Manager (not really an automation, but rather an ergonomic - simplifies DBA tasks)

    9i - CBO now also consider memory and CPU, Dynamic Memory Management, Data Guard, System Managed Undo, LMT, Automatic PGA tuning

    10g - Manageability improvements (self-tuning features), Automatic SGA tuning, ASMM, AWR, ADDM, bigfile tablespaces (no need to manually add datafiles), DBMS_SCHEDULER, DB Control, Grid Control, automatic stats gathering

    11i - AMM, health monitor, Automatic Diagnostic Repository, automatic interval partitioning

    and what will be introduced in 12c?

    Edited by: user11181920 on Oct 3, 2012 12:11 PM
    And with each one, people were predicting the new features would mean the end of DBA's ........ ;-)
  • 27. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    Interesting article about how many (and how big) DBs per DBA is industry standard.
    http://blogs.forrester.com/noel_yuhanna/10-09-30-how_many_dbas_do_you_need_support_databases

    Author mentioned
    What are the factors that can help improve the ratio? Cloud, tools, latest DBMS version (automation)
    Also according to Forrester research (I have a diagram that I cannot publish) "Judging on Databases-Per-DBA Industry Ratio"
    Ratio DB:DBA ratio progress is:
    2000 - 15:1
    2007 - 24:1
    2010 - 40:1
  • 28. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    jgarry Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    user11181920 wrote:
    It is funny article. Made me smile.

    But what I was talking about is similar to a situation that caused Luddite movement.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddism
    >
    introduction of new wide-framed automated looms that could be operated by cheap, relatively unskilled labour, resulting in the loss of jobs for many skilled textile workers.
    >

    The keywords are automated and loss of jobs.
    But what that article doesn't say is how long it took for the Luddite movement to get started. Depending on who you ask and what definitions you use for Industrial Revolution, 30 to 50 years.

    Nowadays of course we have billions of people with cell phones and/or internet, and most of them have odd ideas about trust and information spread. Together with the [url http://motherboard.vice.com/2012/9/10/we-are-now-one-year-away-from-global-riots-complex-systems-theorists-say]coming food riots, much of the world will not care so much about automation.

    Billy's singularity and disruptive events arguments are informative, though I still think the singularity ranks as science fiction (I'm a big fan of science fiction). They do highlight how iffy futurism is. I want my flying car as much as the next guy, but... on the other hand, there was just a law enforcement convention in San Diego, and one thing they had on display there was a 5 pound, 4 rotor reconnaissance drone that can stay airborne for 45 minutes. Now the flying car becomes just a scaling problem... and once again, the regulatory and political issues trump the technological.

    Technological disruptors do happen, but by nature they are chaotic and unpredictable. People in our business tend to be smart and adaptable. We live in interesting times, and really, I don't see our jobs changing all that much over the next decade. There may be rapid growth in some new areas - which tend to get more notice than boring old IT departments - but most of those new things won't pan out. The examples are legion of things simply before their time, either the social or technological infrastructure wasn't mature enough yet - Xerox Star, Larry's Network Computer, broadband internet access etc etc. And other things happen the opposite of what a mechanistic view expects - Paperless office (lol!), freely available information making people smarter, social networking somehow making money etc etc.
  • 29. Re: Are the oracle DBa's seeing an end to their career
    jgarry Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    user11181920 wrote:
    Interesting article about how many (and how big) DBs per DBA is industry standard.
    http://blogs.forrester.com/noel_yuhanna/10-09-30-how_many_dbas_do_you_need_support_databases

    Author mentioned
    What are the factors that can help improve the ratio? Cloud, tools, latest DBMS version (automation)
    Also according to Forrester research (I have a diagram that I cannot publish) "Judging on Databases-Per-DBA Industry Ratio"
    Ratio DB:DBA ratio progress is:
    2000 - 15:1
    2007 - 24:1
    2010 - 40:1
    Many have noted that SQL Server databases are counted much differently than Oracle databases, as what they call a database we call a schema. So that progression could just reflect increasing skew due to SS, some of which are installed by default without even being used or users even understanding there are administrative tasks to perform.

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