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  • 60. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    Tobi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I absolutely agree. There are so many HTML5/CSS/JS frameworks like Jquery mobile or Sencha Touch. They works but developing mobile apps with html is a pain. Many browser versions, performance issue - to name a few. We are going ten steps back if we really have to replace professional languages and environement like Java, .NET or QT. With JavaFX and their OpenGL implementation we have a really to competitor for desktop AND mobile/embedded.

    Our company is developing commercial software and mobile apps for industry and end users. Currently we are using Java Swing (It works very good) and HTML5 for mobile apps (it's a pain). We would like to use JavaFX in the future instead of. So Oracle please not: we would like to develop commercial apps with JavaFX for iOS, Android, Windows 8 Metro, Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.
  • 61. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    966614 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    wzberger wrote:
    I'm pretty sure that Oracle is aware of the issue and some of the managers/developers are also watching this thread.

    Currently it's not quite clear why mobile support is missing - anyway, as long as there is no official statement it's speculation only. It could have technical reasons, legal reasons or maybe the effort to support current and future platforms/OS's. However, a completely different approach could be to compile JavaFX to HTML/JS/CSS code to support mobile and tablet devices - for desktop applications the developer should be able to create JVM compatible binaries and HTML/JS/CSS code. For me this would be a killer feature - don't take me wrong, but currently JavaFX is only another nice toolkit.
    If you read though the topic, you'll find key posts that contradict the various points you've made in first part of your post. They're worth a read, might want to skim back a few pages and check them out.
  • 62. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    ryan29 Explorer
    Currently Being Moderated
    Richard Bair wrote:beyond "I'm a Java developer and I think it would be cool", but really money on the line
    I know that's probably a question you have to ask, but I can't even begin to describe how frustrating it is for an independent developer like myself to see Oracle start every conversation by standing at the front of the room in a $4000 suit and screaming "show me the money!" That frustration is amplified when it comes to JavaFX, because I can see a platform that, for me, could influence the quality of my applications to the point where it could have an impact on how successful I can become as a developer, but there's nothing I can say or do to convince the people in charge that it's a worthy investment.

    The web (html / css) may be a safe bet, but it's a terrible platform. It's a pig in lipstick with a ton of momentum and I was really hoping JavaFX would be the butcher that kills it. JavaFX is the first UI technology I've seen since I started programming 15 years ago that I can look at and say, "Wow! That plugs right into my software stack AND it will make me more productive AND it will reduce complexity and maintenance AND my applications will perform better." Web based platforms aren't even in the same league.

    Why do you think there are a thousand different frameworks for the web? It's because it's a sub-par platform that's broken beyond repair, but everyone keeps trying to fix it. It's awful to develop for and provides an inferior user experience when compared to something like Swing or JavaFX. As time goes on, it's getting harder to maintain too. How am I supposed to test an application on 6 different versions of 5 different sandboxes running on 4 different operating systems if I don't have a dump truck full of money to throw at a QA department? Plus it takes me longer to build a web based front end due to the extra layers of gunk required to convert between platforms. Plus the UI performs poorly compared to a real UI. Plus I need to run an application or web server where 90% of the features aren't relevant to my application. Plus I need to learn, keep up with, and maintain all of that extra technology.

    I honestly thought Oracle was making a long term investment in JavaFX. Are there people over there that think you should be seeing some kind of return on it already? We don't even have printing support and you guys are giving up on it? And let's not mince words, without mobile support you might as well cut your losses and shut the whole thing down right now. What you're left with is the equivalent of Lance Armstrong riding a unicycle.

    JavaFX isn't important to all of us because it's cool. It's important because it represents a noticeable increase in productivity and quality over the current web based frameworks. I can't fathom any way you have technical people over there looking at JavaFX and calling it a bad investment. Well, actually, it is a bad investment without mobile support. No one in their right mind is going to develop a JavaFX application alongside a web based (mobile) application since the web based application will be good enough (for the desktop). What's the target market for a Swing replacement without mobile support?

    It's laughable. Here I am, practically begging for something that I know will lock me to the Java platform so badly that'll it's unlikely I'll ever get away from it, and you guys are betting on a platform you don't control (the web) where you get to split the market with a zillion other players. Have I gone crazy? You're sitting on disruptive technology that doesn't conflict with any of your existing products, locks people into the platform that generates a ton of revenue for you, and it provides a better user experience than the web and you guys are going to bet on... the web? I guess no one's going to get fired for making the safe bet on the web.

    Please, please try to impress upon whoever makes the decisions how much potential JavaFX has to improve both the developer and the user experience and how important that is to keeping people using Java as a platform. Given proper investment it could be the standard by which others are judged. The web doesn't even come close.

    I think JavaFX could revitalize the entire Java platform. I really hope it doesn't get killed off by indecision and short sighted bean counting. That is, unless you skip mobile. Then I don't care since I'll be forced to find another (front end) platform anyway.

    Unfortunately I don't have a significant amount of money available to add weight to my opinion. If I screw up and pick the wrong technology, the price I pay will likely be measured in the number of extra years I have to spend in a cubicle before I can quit working. At least I really enjoy programming :-)
  • 63. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    ryan29 Explorer
    Currently Being Moderated
    I have a few more comments after reading that mailing list thread.

    Open sourcing JavaFX alleviates a lot of my concerns / complaints. Mainly, if the platform stays as fantastic as it has been so far, it's not going to get abandoned. Also, it greatly increases the chances we'll see ways of getting our applications on the major mobile platforms. Personally I wouldn't have a problem with having to pay for an AOT compiler or whatever ends up being necessary (assuming it's not cost prohibitive) once I'm ready to jump on the mobile bandwagon.

    I still don't like the bean counters though :-)
  • 64. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969259 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    ryan29: I couldn't agree more. spot on!
  • 65. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    831292 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I don't see Oracle spending a lot of money on JavaFX. Their current business model is to let someone else take the risk on new development and then cherry-pick the successes using their huge bucket of cash. It appears to me that our best bet on seeing a mobile version of JavaFX lies in someone like a Codename One taking the plunge and making JavaFX work. Open sourcing the code would be a good first step.

    My somewhat biased opinion is that unless we, as developers, get something like a JavaFX for mobile, mobile devices will never eclipse the desktop. The idea that HTML5 and Javascript can somehow replace successful client development environments like Java, C++ and C# across billions of devices and millions of apps is absurd. I don't think the hardware limitations are that much of a consideration. Moore's Law still applies. My company produces 3D graphics apps for the web using JSF and we find that HTML5 just doesn't get the job done. We have to use extensive SVG that is generated on the server and uploaded. This is not an ideal development environment.
  • 66. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    RichardBair Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    user8673745 wrote:
    I don't see Oracle spending a lot of money on JavaFX. Their current business model is to let someone else take the risk on new development and then cherry-pick the successes using their huge bucket of cash. It appears to me that our best bet on seeing a mobile version of JavaFX lies in someone like a Codename One taking the plunge and making JavaFX work. Open sourcing the code would be a good first step.
    I can squash that rumor real quick -- we spend millions (and millions) on FX every year for the salaries for over a 100 people who are working on FX, let alone equipment, travel, evangelism, etc. This is a big investment at Oracle behind FX.
  • 67. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969523 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Great 2c, 965176.

    The reasons may well by "political", as you state. What I see important from JavaFX point of view (and which is happening right now) is brushing up performance on the ARM platforms (which are actually many). This can well happen under the "embedded" flag, but any advancement there is simply primering for good behaviour on the mobile, if that day will come.
  • 68. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    QuidNovi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Richard Bair wrote:
    I can squash that rumor real quick -- we spend millions (and millions) on FX every year for the salaries for over a 100 people who are working on FX, let alone equipment, travel, evangelism, etc. This is a big investment at Oracle behind FX.
    If you have to mention it explicitly, it just emphasize Oracle could be better at communicating on the health and status of JavaFX.

    May we create some sticky FAQ on this forum to clearly eliminate unjustified worries and involuntary FUD (about how Oracle dont care about JavaFX) from current legit worries and concerns (will Oracle extend JavaFX support to a wide devices spectrum) ?
  • 69. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969259 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I develop software with Adobe Air and was considering switching to JavaFX. I have just downloaded the Ensemble application on my Mac. I was expecting to see something unsexy, similar to Swing, but I was really awestruck: this thing rocks! It should be against some law that it doesn't yet run on mobile devices.
  • 70. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    Tobi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Richard, why do Oracle pay 100 guys to develop JavaFX2 for Linux but not for the more important platforms iOS and Android????
  • 71. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    857529 Explorer
    Currently Being Moderated
    @ edko: we need the help of all developers out there to make a strong business case for JavaFX on mobile. If you are willing to provide some information about your projects that involve JavaFX, please contact me at nicolas (dot) lorain @oracle.com.

    Thanks,

    Nicolas

    ---
    Nicolas Lorain
    Java Client Product Management
    Oracle Corporation
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    Twitter: @javafx4you
  • 72. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969259 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    @Nicolas,
    I already have (Oct 15th).
    Another thing I am trying to do is to "evangelize" fellow Adobe Air developers. However, that's a bit harder to do without spamming forums ;-)
  • 73. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    970452 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I agree with most of the previous comments.
    Having a strong JVM-based solution on popular mobile OSes is critical.
    1) Java (and other JVM languages) are so superior to JS (performance, productivity, because of static-typing, tooling)
    2) When developers will have to share code between client and server, if java is still server-only, they will use their favourite client-side language on the server (it has already started). That's what happened to java at the beginning, but for better reasons.

    I spend a lot of time writing Webapp (not web sites) based on JS/HTML these last years, it's really boring (NB: I have not tried GWT).
    It's anachronic. Even writing Swing app is more productive.
    And I must admit that sometimes, I would like to be a C# developer to be able to use MonoTouch. :)

    A year ago, during an informal discussion at Devvox with the Oracle team, it was pretty clear that for a majority of present developers iOS support was critical for JavaFX adoption, and more generally for their business as java developers.
    It seems we are back to square one on this...
  • 74. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    853696 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Oracle brings cross-platform Java dev to mobile devices: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-10-2012/121022-oracle-adf-mobile-extension.html
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