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  • 135. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    Tobi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Great Richard! Thank you very much!
  • 136. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    875756 Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    http://m.infoworld.com/d/application-development/open-source-java-android-dont-bet-it-207457

    Interesting mostly in the fact that mainstream (well, nerd mainstream) media feels its worth covering. This came to me via a mailing list that rarely mentions Java and that I only subscribe to to see what the rest of the world is up to.

    "don't bet on it" is actually a step forward from "no". Little steps.
  • 137. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    bouye Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    Adrian Romanelli wrote:
    bouye wrote:
    Adrian Romanelli wrote:
    I was told at JavaOne that Oracle already has JavaFX running in-house on both iOS and Android.
    Yes, I remember that too from 2011 BUT I also remember that the "safe-harbor" slide was much more present last year's than this year's. ;)
    Not sure if you realized this or not in my post, but I was talking about 2012's JavaOne, the one we just had.
    Sorry, no, I did not realized your were talking about 2012.
    In fact, unlike 2011, I heard very few mentions of FX on mobiles in the sessions I attended to in 2012, something I commented on quite early in my (French) blog coverage of the conference.
    The only official reaction to a question about that came during the Q&A at the end of one of the "Java 7 on MacOS X" sessions (I think I've quoted it at the start of this thread) and a comment from Richard (or Jasper?) telling that it was hard to have something look good across a wide range of (mobile) devices. At this point, it became quite obvious that they were trying hard to avoid the subject.

    Except for that, there was nothing else, and I definitely did not witness any comment about FX being ready on those platforms. On the other hand, in 2011, those comments where numerous and quite direct / in your face: "proof of concept works in our lab", "almost ready", "just few months of work to polish", "we were surprised how easy it was (to do the port)" + the FX game on tablet during the keynotes and Richard's presentations.

    Thanks Richard, that would be awesome indeed if you can publish such article.

    Edited by: bouye on Nov 22, 2012 1:58 PM
  • 138. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    Tobi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    @Richard: When do you plan to release your blog post?
  • 139. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    966614 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    bouye wrote:
    Adrian Romanelli wrote:
    bouye wrote:
    Adrian Romanelli wrote:
    I was told at JavaOne that Oracle already has JavaFX running in-house on both iOS and Android.
    Yes, I remember that too from 2011 BUT I also remember that the "safe-harbor" slide was much more present last year's than this year's. ;)
    Not sure if you realized this or not in my post, but I was talking about 2012's JavaOne, the one we just had.
    Sorry, no, I did not realized your were talking about 2012.
    In fact, unlike 2011, I heard very few mentions of FX on mobiles in the sessions I attended to in 2012, something I commented on quite early in my (French) blog coverage of the conference.
    The only official reaction to a question about that came during the Q&A at the end of one of the "Java 7 on MacOS X" sessions (I think I've quoted it at the start of this thread) and a comment from Richard (or Jasper?) telling that it was hard to have something look good across a wide range of (mobile) devices. At this point, it became quite obvious that they were trying hard to avoid the subject.

    Except for that, there was nothing else, and I definitely did not witness any comment about FX being ready on those platforms. On the other hand, in 2011, those comments where numerous and quite direct / in your face: "proof of concept works in our lab", "almost ready", "just few months of work to polish", "we were surprised how easy it was (to do the port)" + the FX game on tablet during the keynotes and Richard's presentations.

    Thanks Richard, that would be awesome indeed if you can publish such article.

    Edited by: bouye on Nov 22, 2012 1:58 PM
    I had two conversations with two different Oracle employees (with others listening in), who told me informally, that they have it running in-house, but management was leery to release it in lieu of damaging profits for their ADF sales, as well as and how they could monetize releasing Java/FX on Android/Apple (and you'll see a hint of the monetization issue from an early post in this thread/topic). I even got a sense of frustration (for lack of a better word) from one of the Oracle employees about the situation, that they want what we want as well, Java/FX on Android/iOS.

    You are correct though, there were no official announcements (at least none that I saw). Everything I learned was from talking to Oracle employees after sessions, as well as on the main display/vendors floor. And just in case you were wondering, I asked permission of both employees to be able to speak about this in public. I even joked with one about "being visited by guys in black suits and sunglasses" if I talked. :)
  • 140. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    Tobi Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I think so too but I ask me one question: If Oracle don't want to "damage" their ADF profit they should not open the JavaFX source so that the community builds "JavaFX for iOS". That makes no sense. IMO Oracle has the chance to release a much more successful product than ADF with much more profit possible...

    For my company ADF is not interesting for us. There are so much HTML5 frameworks available which can be combined with server side Java or other technologies. Currently we are using Sencha Touch or JQuery Mobile. We tried Codename One, Phonegap/Cordova and so on. All these frameworks are ok to develop small apps but nothing really performance intensive like multimedia apps.

    ADF and JavaFX can live together - they are for different needs I think. JavaFX is good for professional desktop software and mobile apps. But it's not good for web applications which have to be accessible via app AND webbrowser. You'll need HTML5 for doing that.
  • 141. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969259 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I agree 100%. ADF brings little new; it is just a "me too" product. I really cannot see its advantage over Cordova, or other hybrid mobile platforms. JavaFX, on the other hand: that would be revolutionary.
  • 142. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    975845 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I am really confused to hear that Oracle fears a competitive product even it's Oracles own product. This is weird! If I were Oracle and I would have two ready to sell products, I would let them compete on the market. This is the best you can do if you have enough menpower. Then you don't let any third party getting into the market because you compete with yourself. This is really a luxury problem ;)

    From my point of view Oracle should sell ADF though their established distribution chain and for enterprise enviornments. On the other hand they should create a Oracle-Developer plan for pretty cheep money as Apple does. Let's say for 99$ anually. That would pay the menpower for driving the JavaFX development or if nobody registers (what I really don't believe) JavaFX flopped. These two distribution channels won't interfere until they come to the developer and so the developer will decide which one to choose.

    From my perspective, if I'd be asked to develop a business software with accounting and so on, I'd go for ADF. When I am asked to write a game, a media app or just a real cool advertising app that runs cross platform I would go for JavaFX.

    So IMO these two technologies are not interfering on the market as well. But if Oracle doesn't hurry up, there will be another big player that delivers a technology like that, since the demand is big. We developers are tired to write the same code three times or maybe 6 times (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, iOS, Android, WindowsRT).
  • 143. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969259 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    For creating games that can run on multiple platforms, Adobe Air is a very good choice, and it is completely free. It has accelerated graphics, good physics engines, integration with native features, and a nice set of tools. As a matter of fact, Air is targeting the gaming market, and neglecting business software development. It is in this area that JavaFX could be a killer product. Oracle understands business software better than anyone (OK, maybe SAP too ;-) ). The clear advantage of JavaFX for business software development is the ability to use the same technology across the entire stack: server and client. It is an incredible value proposition for business clients because you need a less diverse set of skills, and you can reuse a lot of code. For example: no more writing business rules twice, once in Java for the server, once in Javascript for the client. Write it once, and use it everywhere. I am sure businesses would be more than willing to pay for such capabilities. Just imagine the cost reduction! If Oracle decides to monetize, I hope they also keep in mind independent developers, and make it affordable for them too.

    Edited by: edko on Nov 23, 2012 1:48 AM
  • 144. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    969523 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    972842 wrote:
    I am really confused to hear that Oracle fears a competitive product even it's Oracles own product. This is weird! If I were Oracle and I would have two ready to sell products, I would let them compete on the market. This is the best you can do if you have enough menpower. Then you don't let any third party getting into the market because you compete with yourself. This is really a luxury problem ;)
    I think you nailed it there.

    This leads to some internal organizational things, bosses fighting for spotlight and fame. Sad. Being a triumphant company in the 21st century is made of other stuff, and the transformation for Oracle seems to be still ahead of the company.

    Having seen some footage of Larry Ellison presenting a product makes the gap to Apple etc. look vast. That guy may be a good owner, but do NOT let him present. Or train him first. Of course, in a stifle organization no-one can say this aloud so I do the favor for them. Contain Larry.

    That's all. ;)
  • 145. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    875756 Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    To bring the conversation back to its topic somewhat:

    Initial investigations on the Windows Store and the GPL look promising. I'm no lawyer, and the usual disclaimers apply, but on the surface at least, it looks as though the licence for the win store is GPL friendly.

    http://www.jbkempf.com/blog/post/2012/Windows-Store-and-the-GPL

    At this stage it looks like if the technicals can be solved (very much looking forward to Richard's post on this) then using OpenJRE based solutions should be legally do-able for Android and Windows Metro.

    The problem child is still iOS (and the desktop Mac store as well). For this I guess we have to wait to see what Richards "no comment" comment means - unless Oracle decide to make it happen, I can't see too many ways that the community will be able to get JFX on iOS.
  • 146. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    jsmith Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    There is no such thing as Windows Metro. There is Windows 8 which runs on Intel processors and Windows RT which runs on ARM. Both feature the Modern UI formerly known as Metro. JavaFX will run on Windows 8 without issue.

    JavaFX will not run on Windows RT and, in my opinion, without digging into the internals of RT and JRE8, I believe that it would be a significant amount of work to make it runnable. In fact, if Oracle did not already have a version of Java and JavaFX in preview for ARM, then I think supporting RT would be a monumental and hopeless task.

    I'd be happy if I were wrong on this point of course. If somebody more knowledgable can correct the error in my assumption and provide detailed info on why I'm wrong, then I would love to know. I'd also be interested in knowing that if JavaFX were made to run on RT, then would execution on Windows Phone be pretty straight forward to achieve because the two systems share a similar core.

    A Microsoft article http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/02/09/building-windows-for-the-arm-processor-architecture.aspx states:
    Keep in mind that Windows RT, doesn't support running, emulating, or porting existing x86/64 desktop apps.
    And it is pretty clear that the creation of Windows RT itself was a huge project, years in the making, not some quick overnight port by a couple of open source hackers. Java and JavaFX are significantly smaller and less complex than RT and they have the benefit that much of their code base is in OS neutral Java. But both have significant native code portions which would need to be compiled against the RT libraries.

    Additionally, it would be best if JavaFX apps at least had the option of looking like a Modern UI app. This means the apps should be skinable to look like Modern UI, hopefully with just a CSS style sheet and some custom skin control classes. Thankfully, as Modern UI is significantly simpler yhan Aero, perhaps yhis won't be difficult. Some of Pedro's work on this looks quite promising http://pixelduke.wordpress.com/2012/11/04/metro-style-check-box-for-java-jmetro/.

    Also, JavaFX apps should feel like a Modern UI apps. This means that a JavaFX system should provide easy ways to realize the Modern UI design guidelines. This includes things like live tile support but extends far into things like typography, search capability, layout management, etc. This is a harder thing to enable and get right then skinning the Modern UI look.

    Some JavaFX deployment modes which rely on a browser plugin will work on IE9, but not IE10, which is the default full screen browser for the Modern UI. This is because Microsoft do not allow third parties like Oracle to register plugins in IE10. http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/hh968248(v=vs.85).aspx

    Microsoft also don't allow distribution of software to RT without it going through the Windows App Store or an enterprise side loading setup. And any software must be self contained and not rely on anything else installed on the system other than the core RT OS and libs.

    So pretty much the only way JavaFX will be able to target deployment on RT is to define self contained applications packaged in the new appx format that includes both the app and the Java Runtime environment. And that self contained app package must run on the limited set of hardware supported by RT as well as only make use of the RT libraries.
  • 147. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    RichardBair Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    Tobi wrote:
    @Richard: When do you plan to release your blog post?
    I'm not sure, working my way through the post-Thanksgiving emails and TODOs :-)
  • 148. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    875756 Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    I'd also like to second jsmith's queris on Windows RT support.

    Looking at it deeper (as a result of his comments), Windows RT is basically a whole new operating system as far as JFX is concerned: http://www.techradar.com/au/news/software/operating-systems/windows-8-vs-windows-rt-whats-the-difference-1086980

    Does Oracle consider it a "desktop" platform and on the JavaFX target list or is it falling into the smartphones-not-our-problem space?

    Windows RT is targeted at slates/tablets and ultra-mobile laptops from the looks of it - it's not really for "smartphones" but more for that blurry border between desktop and iPad-like devices.

    If it is successful (big question) then it is aimed at business usage, a space where Windows dominates. The fact that the target devices have good keyboard/monitor docking options (i.e. switch from tablet to desktop pretty easily) and the inclusion of Office and Outlook could have big appeal to a lot of business users. Most other things a typical business user needs are web based anyway and offices are increasingly mobile.

    I can't imagine the uptake will be rapid, but given it's "Windows" it's hard to imagine it won't end up with a least a chunk of the market.
  • 149. Re: JavaOne 2012: JavaFX on iOS, Android and Windows 8 Metro???
    933391 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    It is really frustrating to see nothing substantial is happening. I don't see big enterprises even considering migrating from java swing to java fx if it doesn't provide a feature set comparable to html5. Even if Oracle announced JavaFX mobile support in this year's conferenc it would have been in 24th hour.

    Is there anything happening at all, besides Oracle being indecisive, sending out confusing messages? If not, I think there's really no point in wasting more time on JavaFX.

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