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To all the whining wussies

BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
Currently Being Moderated

I've read posting after posting about whining and complaining about how the new forum s/w looks and works. And I don't get it.


The old Jives forums were not good. OTN forums was down often. Search was broken. Syntax highlighting did not work for PL/SQL or SQL. We had to deal with a spam word filter, where a single word in your posting prevented it from being accepted - which meant having to hunt down the offending word to make a perfectly legit posting. Etc. The old Jives forum was very problematic.  But year after year using it , one got use to the pain and ignored it.

 

Now we have brand new forum s/w. And instead of discovering what it can do, how it works, so-called technical experts are complaining because they do not want to learn and discover new s/w. They do not want to push boundaries of what modern technology can do to dated forum software and features of the 90's. They do not want push and pull the s/w to see what can be done, what is problematic, and provide constructive feedback.

 

No, instead Oracle is slammed. The new s/w is slammed. With some even suggesting that OTN forums should go back to the old and dated and slow and unscalable and problematic Jives version. WTF...


There is a story about a young student from one martial art style, being invited to a tea ceremony by a master of another style. The rash young student kept on interrupting the master as the master discussed his style - with the young student interjecting of how this technique is different in his style, how his style differs and is better, and so on.


The master poured tea into the young man's cup. And kept on pouring. As the cup overflowed, the student exclaimed "Master, my cup is already full!".


The master replied "Exactly. And with your cup already full, how can you drink my tea or understand my style?".

 

If you are the technical expert you think you are - how about acting like one when it comes to being exposed to new technology and doing things differently than before?

  • 1. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    People need to be challenged to grow, but I this is not the right time and place. How about to keep the discussion on the same eye level and avoid making or pretending that technical issues are just a personal problem.

     

    The way I see it, people, including myself, have been outlining their experiences with the new forum software and are questioning the competence of the forum management. "We" the people you may consider whining have a problem with a piece of machinery that does not work as expected. I think the best people can do and should do is to outline experiences and suggestions to make the forum managers aware of the problems in order to take corrective actions.

     

    I think no one here has any interest to shoot the community or Oracle to pieces. I certainly have no reason to whine, because I have enough other links and interesting sites to go to. I'm sure Oracle can take the harsh criticism, otherwise they were no longer in business.

  • 2. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    People need to be challenged to grow, but I think this is not the right time and place. How about to keep the discussion on the same eye level and avoid making or pretending that technical issues are just a personal problem.

     

    The way I see it, people, including myself, have been outlining their experiences with the new forum software and are questioning the competence of the forum management. "We" the people you may consider whining have a problem with a piece of machinery that does not work as expected. I think the best people can do and should do is to outline experiences and suggestions to make the forum managers aware of the problems in order to take corrective actions.

     

    I think no one here has any interest to shoot the community or Oracle to pieces. I certainly have no reason to whine, because I have enough other links and interesting sites to go to. I'm sure Oracle can take the harsh criticism, otherwise they were already no longer in business.

     

    Message was edited by: Dude

     

    Btw, I replied again because my response would not appear in the thread, not after 30 minutes or so. It was showing up in the preview only, so I don't know what went wrong. But as soon as I replied again, it kicked in.

  • 3. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Does the new forum s/w provides the same basic features as the old forum software?

    • posting and responding? - the new WYSIWYG editor makes things a lot easier (no more need to edit and preview, edit and preview, and then hit the submit button)
    • can you list postings in a forum? - yes, a bit confusing as there are multiple options to do it, but it is not a missing feature
    • can you find a specific posting? - yes, search options have improved dramatically

     

    So the basics are not only working well, it is in many respects better than before.

     

    Is the interface different? Are there many new features and functionality and a lack of clarity about exactly how to use these?

     

    Yes, there is a learning curve. Something I would expect those who consider themselves technical experts will take to like ducks to water - as being a technology expert also means liking technology and wanting to test and try and learn new technology to see what it offers, how it offers that, and how it can be put to effective use.

     

    And not sit around whining like wussies, questioning Oracle OTN staff's competence, while exhibiting extreme bias, and not even making an effort to get to grips with the new forum technology, nor providing the kind of feedback that OTN staff can use to fix problems and bugs.

     

    Or do you think questioning competence and making remarks like "obviously the new s/w was not tested properly"  are constructive and conducive in getting issues resolved around here? Especially when these remarks are made by people that should have firsthand experience of challenges with a large scale migration?

     

    So in my view, twisted and warped as it may be, I see a lot wussie whining...

  • 4. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Hemant K Chitale Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    As DBAs, SysAdmins, Developers, Analysts, Architects etc ........ imagine how our users feel when we upgrade their software platform.  There's one difference --- we allow our users to run a UAT and sign off on the software.  Without user signoff, the upgrade cannot be deployed.

     

    Hemant K Chitale

  • 5. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Hemant K Chitale Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Hey.... what happened to the EDIT I did ?

     

    I am putting in a reply because the EDIT isn't appearing ...

     

    I am not saying that Oracle should have allowed us a UAT.  Possibly, likely, it wasn't possible or practical.

    However, what I am saying is "imagine how our users feel when we upgrade their software platform" .... "without a UAT".  Our users are humans so are we.  Change is difficult to digest -- especially when it is abrupt without a testing / acceptance window.

     

    The last time forums was upgraded, we had lots of complaints.  Gradually, they died down.  This moment, too, shall pass  (Eastern Wisdom).

     

    Hemant  K Chitale

  • 6. Re: To all the whining wussies
    ATD Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    Hi Hemant,

     

    I have actually been trying to use this site as both a techie and a newbie.  I'm confused enough as a techie trying to find where everything has been moved to and/or renamed to.  As a newbie, I couldn't do searches (kept ending up with Korean posts) and, expecting to see words such as "Threads", "Posts" and "Search", struggled a bit in finding the posts in the first place.

     

    Yes, some things may be better than they were before and, yes, there is always a learning curve when you move from one system to another after you have used the old system for years.  However, a public website should be intuitive to use and should require little, if any, learning for, shall I say, "basic" users (those that just want to post a question and check for a response) - after all, unlike internal systems, they can not, and should not need to, attend a training course to use a public forum. 

     

    Over time, I'm sure, we'll all come to love the new software, but for now, it's not my favourite

     

    Andy

  • 7. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    HemantKChitale wrote:

     

    The last time forums was upgraded, we had lots of complaints.  Gradually, they died down.  This moment, too, shall pass  (Eastern Wisdom).

     

     

    Exactly.

     

    This is IMO what I'm seeing when reading the whining....

    http://www.elliottwave.com/images/marketwatch/cartoon%20sized%20500.gif

  • 8. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    Basics are not working. For instance, the editor does not work properly or has specific software version or platform requirements.

     

     

    However, we probably have not even discovered the more serious issues yet. I only checked a couple of my previous posts and noticed code and other tags have not been migrated properly, resulting in malformed and useless code. I don't know how much content will be affected overall, maybe it's only my stuff, but some content has become useless. If Oracle wants to fix such issues they may have to perform another data migration attempt.

  • 9. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Dude wrote:

     

    Basics are not working. For instance, the editor does not work properly or has specific software version or platform requirements.

     

    Details? I have used the editor via Chrome and Firefox using Linux (Ubuntu 12.10) and Windows 7. No issues. Except for the odd server error (messing up SSO), that seems to have been related to the "messages like this" feature (digging up decade old threads as references) that have since been disabled.

     

    Actually find it easier to format replies in one go as no separate preview action is required.

     

    I only checked a couple of my previous posts and noticed code and other tags have not been migrated properly, resulting in malformed and useless code.

    So? Exact same issue happened in the 2008 upgrade. Until that time we used the prefix HTML tag for formatting code - and the upgrade, which introduced the {code} tags, messed up manual HTML tagging used in old posts. I actually updated 3 year old posts of mine back then containing source code samples I often referred to, to using the {code} tags.

     

    It is an unfortunate side effect of the upgrade back then, and the upgrade now. Does it make the forum and old postings useless? No. Just a tad more attention needs to be paid when reading an old post.

     

    Is it ideal? No. But it is not a show stopper by any means, warranting total condemnation of the new forum and calling OTN staff incompetent.

  • 10. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Stefan Jager Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated

    +1

  • 11. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    BillyVerreynne wrote:

     

    Dude wrote:

     

    Basics are not working. For instance, the editor does not work properly or has specific software version or platform requirements.

     

    Details? I have used the editor via Chrome and Firefox using Linux (Ubuntu 12.10) and Windows 7. No issues. Except for the odd server error (messing up SSO), that seems to have been related to the "messages like this" feature (digging up decade old threads as references) that have since been disabled.

     

    Actually find it easier to format replies in one go as no separate preview action is required.

     

    I only checked a couple of my previous posts and noticed code and other tags have not been migrated properly, resulting in malformed and useless code.

    So? Exact same issue happened in the 2008 upgrade. Until that time we used the prefix HTML tag for formatting code - and the upgrade, which introduced the {code} tags, messed up manual HTML tagging used in old posts. I actually updated 3 year old posts of mine back then containing source code samples I often referred to, to using the {code} tags.

     

    It is an unfortunate side effect of the upgrade back then, and the upgrade now. Does it make the forum and old postings useless? No. Just a tad more attention needs to be paid when reading an old post.

     

    Is it ideal? No. But it is not a show stopper by any means, warranting total condemnation of the new forum and calling OTN staff incompetent.

     

    I have already been given details about the problems with the editor. Windows7 and Linux are not the only systems out there. Doing anything fancy in a web browser and remain compatible is a huge challenge. Some of the current problems are just inconvenient and not necessarily a show-stopper. Nevertheless, I still consider a working and robust editor a basic and among the most important functions.

     

    Some of my postings I checked have malformed content that are not just cosmetic issues, but are missing information and are malformed in such a way that I have to find out again how it was originally. I cannot verify all my previous hundreds of code posts.

     

    I did not call anyone incompetent, but the question of what testing and user acceptance had been performed, or what went wrong is understandable. If the 2008 upgrade was bad is a lame excuse. It's time to address the issues and its all up to Oracle now. I think they have enough information to deal with and to be able to do the right thing, hopefully.

     

    I don't understand why you are defending or downplay the current upgrade results and think this is all just bad weather, and accuse people of mindless criticism and emotional logic, as in one of  your previous posts. But I guess it makes it more entertaining - I'm just getting warmed up.

  • 12. Re: To all the whining wussies
    kendenny Expert
    Currently Being Moderated

    I think complaining about not being able to paste into a reply is legitimate complaint, not whining.


  • 13. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Dude wrote:

    I have already been given details about the problems with the editor. Windows7 and Linux are not the only systems out there. Doing anything fancy in a web browser and remain compatible is a huge challenge. Some of the current problems are just inconvenient and not necessarily a show-stopper. Nevertheless, I still consider a working and robust editor a basic and among the most important functions.

    Agree.

     

    Some of my postings I checked have malformed content that are not just cosmetic issues, but are missing information and are malformed in such a way that I have to find out again how it was originally. I cannot verify all my previous hundreds of code posts.

    I only updated old posts that I referred to - why worry about my other posts? It is reasonable to expect someone that fails to find an answer looking at old posts, to ask the question on OTN.

     

    It is unreasonable to expect all old post formatting to be preserved - as there are literally 100s of 1000s of these. And a conversion technique that may work for some, may just horribly disfigure others.

     

     

    I did not call anyone incompetent, but the question of what testing and user acceptance had been performed, or what went wrong is understandable. If the 2008 upgrade was bad is a lame excuse. It's time to address the issues and its all up to Oracle now. I think they have enough information to deal with and to be able to do the right thing, hopefully.

    Disagree. I see the problem that your expectation, and the expectations of others, have not been met. OTN forums is not as broken and in as a bad shape as being made out by those whose expectations were not met. (and whose expectations are all different)

     

    I don't understand why you are defending or downplay the current upgrade results and think this is all just bad weather, and accuse people of mindless criticism and emotional logic, as in one of  your previous posts. But I guess it makes it more entertaining - I'm just getting warmed up.

    Despite the initial teething problems, the upgrade was a success. And criticising as some have done because they don't like social media aspects, cannot spend a little to to get to know how the new features work, what the differences are between the normal and advance editors, how to post code snippets, how to browse/search/view a space, and so on, is mindless and emotional in my view - especially when comments get nasty (as was the case in Sonya's posting directly after the upgrade) and OTN staff are being insulted.

  • 14. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    kendenny wrote:

     

    I think complaining about not being able to paste into a reply is legitimate complaint, not whining.

     

     

    I have highlighted your text and am pasting it:

    I think complaining about not being able to paste into a reply is legitimate complaint, not whining.

     

    Next I have highlighted a forum URL and am pasting it:

    https://forums.oracle.com/places

     

    I fail to understand what pasting-inability there is.

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