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  • 15. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Stefan Jager Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    update objectcatalogus set presentatiion='Yes' where objectcode=AA99';
    
    

    Copying from SQL Developer and pasting a bit of sql in the editor and adding SQL syntax highlighting: No problem in FF20 ...

     

    The only thing I can't seem to do is edit my Profile, adding a bit of expertise and history always gives an error message saying that the form was wrong, but it doesn't say WHAT is wrong. But that's no biggie.

  • 16. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Zoltan Kecskemethy Expert
    Currently Being Moderated

    kendenny wrote:

     

    I think complaining about not being able to paste into a reply is legitimate complaint, not whining.

     

     

    I have highlighted your text and am pasting it:

    I think complaining about not being able to paste into a reply is legitimate complaint, not whining.

     

    Next I have highlighted a forum URL and am pasting it:

    https://forums.oracle.com/places

    Same here. Works like a charm. Generally I like the new soft.

  • 17. Re: To all the whining wussies
    jschellSomeoneStoleMyAlias Expert
    Currently Being Moderated


    > OTN forums was down often.

     

    Not sure what "often" means but that has nothing to do with look and feel.

     

    > And instead of discovering what it can do, how it works, so-called technical experts are complaining because they do not want to learn and discover new s/w .. can do to dated forum software and features of the 90's

     

    Utter and complete nonsense.  The POINT of the site is to get information about Oracle products.  The point is NOT forum software.  For a professional the ONLY value should be in how well and how quickly the site meets the needs of finding out necessary information so one can get back to work.

     

    The fact of the matter is that the professionals here do in FACT use new software all the time.  New versions of the Database.  New versions of Java (sometimes weekly on that.) New versions of hardware.  New virtualization software.  A vast array of products.

     

    And NONE of those products are forum software.

     

    The forum software is a tool not a goal.

     

    >There is a story about a young student from one martial art style, being invited to a tea ceremony by a master of another style. The rash young student kept on interrupting the master as the master discussed his style...

     

    Do you even know what Oracle sells?  Adjust your story to explain what happens when the 'master' starts explaining how he decided to paint the walls of dojo - while the student is paying for the opportunity to actually learn about his style.

     

    > If you are the technical expert you think you are - how about acting like one when it comes to being exposed to new technology and doing things differently than before?

     

    I prefer to act like a professional.  One who has a job to get done and needs answers to get that job done.  And anything that impedes that is in fact a problem.  I prefer to leave the gee-willing to the market bloggers. To be fair that is reasonable for them because it is their job to find new things to gush about.  But it isn't my job...as a professional.

  • 18. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    Considering how the forum software worked during the last couple of days, and considering the user account and data migration issues that still exist, I cannot understand how you can call it a success.

     

    The new version of Jive certainly has more potential than the old system. Like I previously wrote, I can find many improvements. The work-flow and how information is organized and presented however received much negative criticism. People have no idea how hard OTN staff tried to make the forum work as it does, but that cannot be the criteria. I seriously hope that Oracle can sort out the pressing issues and is able to further customize the system to get more acceptance.

     

    I think I understand where you are coming from and what your message is, and I can agree to some extend, but I don't agree with your style in addressing the issue. I think everyone deserves to be treated on the same eye level. Best practice tells me it is best to acknowledge and accept people's problems before trying to work out the solution. You may even get some thumbs up when making technical issues a personal problem, but I don't think it is a conflict resolution strategy.

  • 19. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Greg.Spall Expert
    Currently Being Moderated

    BillyVerreynne wrote:

     

    The master poured tea into the young man's cup. And kept on pouring. As the cup overflowed, the student exclaimed "Master, my cup is already full!".

     

    The problem is clearly that he doesn't have a big enough cup!!

    So, Billy, are you trying to say they need bigger servers ?

    lol

  • 20. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    791794 wrote:

    > OTN forums was down often.

    Not sure what "often" means but that has nothing to do with look and feel.

    The fact is that the old s/w reached the end of life, became more problematic as it fails to scale, was unable to effectively provide basic features anymore, and became less robust.

     

    So  a change was inevitable. And so too ito interface as Web 2.0 has been around for a while now and rich web interfaces provide a far better interface than old style web interfaces,

     

    Utter and complete nonsense.  The POINT of the site is to get information about Oracle products.  The point is NOT forum software.  For a professional the ONLY value should be in how well and how quickly the site meets the needs of finding out necessary information so one can get back to work.

    Then I'm not a professional by that definition. I do not come here to get more information about Oracle products. That is what the manuals, support notes, white papers, webinars and so on provides.

     

    I come here to read about problems and how to solve them. About stuff that you will not easily find through the normal channels.

     

    I come here to read what my peers have to say - about their views of a product, technology, feature, and how they put it to use. There are guys here I have known for almost 20 years since cdos days on usenet. There are new faces here that are very bright and insightful and that I take serious (despite my differences in viewpoint). There are many people here I like to follow and read what they have to say as their experiences enables me to make better decisions about which technology/features I should use, and how.

     

    And no, I do not as a professional software engineer use the forum as a crutch - to quickly find out necessary information in order to my job in the office. I find that information quicker by actually RTFM'ing and STFW'ing first...

     

    The fact of the matter is that the professionals here do in FACT use new software all the time.  New versions of the Database.  New versions of Java (sometimes weekly on that.) New versions of hardware.  New virtualization software.  A vast array of products.

     

    And NONE of those products are forum software.

     

    The forum software is a tool not a goal.

    Your point being? Surely you should be able to use the tool? And to use the tool you need to learn the tool.

     

    I prefer to act like a professional.  One who has a job to get done and needs answers to get that job done.  And anything that impedes that is in fact a problem.  I prefer to leave the gee-willing to the market bloggers. To be fair that is reasonable for them because it is their job to find new things to gush about.  But it isn't my job...as a professional.

    Granted. There are those who are acting as professional wussies and professional idiots.. or are at least extremely gifted amateurs...

  • 21. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Dude wrote:

     

    Considering how the forum software worked during the last couple of days, and considering the user account and data migration issues that still exist, I cannot understand how you can call it a success.

     

    We are having this conversation on OTN forums. We are posting. Reading. Replying.

     

    I just responded to a PL/SQL posting by looking up an old post with sample code of mine. The old posting still looked fine formatting wise. I found the old posting quicker using the new search feature, than using Google (which I used multiple times in the past looking up that same old posting). Also something that was impossible to search and find using old OTN forums.

     

    I then copy and pasted the URL to that old posting into my response - and it was automatically turned into a message link that required the {message} tag to be manually coded in old forums.I clicked the submit button and the posting was visible immediately.. no waiting several minutes for it to appear as the case was still last week with the old forums.

     

    And this is what you and others consider a failure!?

     

    Do you now understand what I think the there are wussies that whine?

  • 22. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    I like the new editor features, which enables me to create professional and exchangeable content. I was never a fan of the code and formatting tags, because it always meant to maintain a separate backup of stuff I have written. I usually create documents offline, using my own editor.

     

    I ran into wired problems with cut and paste and undo not working properly, etc. though, which might have been due to stability and connectivity issues. I have also not really found out the logic yet why cut and paste would sometimes strip and sometimes add a newline. Like I said these are not necessarily show stoppers.

     

    Here is an example however what I think is not acceptable:

     

    Conversion failures of previous forum messages

     

    Perhaps it's only affecting my postings. I sometimes used the <pre> tag instead of {code}. The howto in the link  is somewhat messed up too, although using the code tags. It's unlocked, which was locked before, but when editing it, most of the text just disappears. Maybe it's too large for the buffer? I will have to recreate (copy and paste) the complete thing. I have no idea what other messages are messed up though.

     

    I think a proper conversion of existing message, which was promised, is not to much too ask for.

  • 23. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Greg.Spall wrote:

     

    The problem is clearly that he doesn't have a big enough cup!!

    New Forum? It Will Not Work.  

  • 24. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Here is an example however what I think is not acceptable:

     

    Conversion failures of previous forum messages

     

    Perhaps it's only affecting my postings. I sometimes used the <pre> tag instead of {code}.

    Yeah - the pre tag should not have been supported as it can badly affect rendering of everything else.

     

    The howto in the link  is somewhat messed up too, although using the code tags. It's unlocked, which was locked before, but when editing it, most of the text just disappears. Maybe it's too large for the buffer? I will have to recreate (copy and paste) the complete thing. I have no idea what other messages are messed up though.

    This is one of the reasons I do not post How To's on web forums - invariable an upgrade, style sheet change, or something along those lines, will mess up its formatting.

     

    If you want to fix it, I suggest first copying the entire message content, pasting it into a local editor, then editing the original post, deleting everything from it, and the use your local editor as the source for copying and recreating the content.

     

    If there is a size issue, perhaps instead of trying to fix the old posting, create a brand new one instead. Then replace the old one's content with a URL to the new one.

     

    I think a proper conversion of existing message, which was promised, is not to much too ask for.

    It was not really promised as I recall - rather a commitment to do the best that can be done to do the conversions. The amount of effort, the risk to incorrectly converting others due to the additional conversion code, the percentage of old postings the additional conversion will address, and so on, all need to be considered. Considering that the message base is 13+ years old, span multiple Jives versions, with different feature sets enabled, unfortunate as it may be, I think it unrealistic to expect proper conversion of all content.

     

    Or expect conversion attempts of existing converted content after the fact...

  • 25. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    It also did not convert font tags and headers. Oracle Linux NTFS how-to

     

    The migration did not recognize many of the previous formatting tags. Considering that previous forum posts only provided a fixed and limited amount of formatting options, I'd say data migration has failed. You cannot blame people for using the software to the extend possible and according to FAQ.

     

    Things like this should have been determined early in the game and given some attention. If this was known, but not outlined to users in order not to create waves prior to the upgrade, than that's really bad. If it was not expected to happen than migration failed.

  • 26. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Well, the use of font tags were few and far between. What percentage of posts were using it? Less than 1%? (many posters did not even use the {code} tags, never mind font tags and direct HTML)

     

    With the 2008 upgrade, all my posts which provided URL links to documentation, were broken. As the URL tag were no longer supported (was turned off for some or other reason).

     

    So I understand your frustration. One needs to be pragmatic though.

  • 27. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    Does the editor require a connection to the server? If yes than people should need to be aware of it. I also had some cut and paste, and undo issues, but I'm not sure under which circumstances. Otherwise I think the editor is fine and I appreciate the better formatting options. One thing however that I find unfortunate is the loss of being able to use the back button and retrieve the text, e.g. when opening another page by accident.

  • 28. Re: To all the whining wussies
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    I can live with it, but I wouldn't call it a successful migration of data. Silly enough I spent some time trying to provide professional looking content. Oracle had a chance to give more information about shortfalls prior to the upgrade. I would have understood the technical issues, but I consider it a matter of courtesy and communication to at least inform about it.

     

    I particularly asked about forum links, conversion of previous data and my watch list and received positive feedback beside the link problem, which then caused more concern also by other people and apparently was one of the reason the upgrade was postponed. Or am I seeing this wrong?

     

    Regarding the 2008 upgrade, past failure is not an excuse for future failure.

  • 29. Re: To all the whining wussies
    BillyVerreynne Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Dude wrote:

     

    Does the editor require a connection to the server?

     

    Yes. Seems like Ajax calls are made to save a draft copy as you edit. Which is neat as you can recover that posting when loosing connection. sign on again and respond to that posting again.

     

    If yes than people should need to be aware of it. I also had some cut and paste, and undo issues, but I'm not sure under which circumstances.

    I think the cut option does not work correctly/as expected.

     

    Otherwise I think the editor is fine and I appreciate the better formatting options. One thing however that I find unfortunate is the loss of being able to use the back button and retrieve the text, e.g. when opening another page by accident.

    A "feature" of Web 2.0 interfaces where a page is no longer treated as a block device interface. Unfortunately little that one can do about it...

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