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8 Replies Latest reply: Aug 27, 2013 12:31 AM by BAO.SZ RSS

What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?

BAO.SZ Newbie
Currently Being Moderated
Hi, experts,
"Choice of productivity"--said jdev on it's startup--it's the main reason for me/us to make the choice, and I believe it's true.
To my opinion, most of us--the application developers--should focus our energy and resource on finding requirement and fulfilling it quickly.
We need not to enjoy the excitement of coding or implementing a new low level framework by ourselves.
So the features of end to end solution, declarative developing etc from jdev/adf would be a sound solution.
And since I myself had the experience of developing with Oracle Designer/Developer tools many years ago, I can take pretty sure it will be a smart choice for adopting jdev/adf.

Many years ago, when I worked in an IT department as a developer, my director made a not easy decision on choosing Oracle Devoloper as main tools instead of VB/PB. --many people said we were maverick. Because oracle forms was not widely used.

But now the issues are:
--none of us have enough jdev/adf experience.
I myself had enough(and out dated) forms/ PLSQL experience but none of java/js experience.
(I began a real try on jdev/adf two month ago, but have not finished any serious applications function yet, I'm still entangled with trivial issues such as how to highlight current row in an adf table etc).
Our other team members have enough java/ eclipse experience but none of jdev/adf knowledge.
--And all of our other team members are not willing to adopt a new tool. Objections include:
Eclipse is good enough, even more powerful ! There are more people use it--if jdev/adf is better, why fewer adopt it?
The declarative way of jdev/adf is only for demo and toy, you cannot dev real complex app on them.

So, even if I'm the boss who can make the decision, I still need strong support for this decision:
--We will continue to do the test in this month, to find out if it can really undertake real complex task. And

--Can  anyone give some strong proving that jdev/adf is more productive than eclipse in developing database centered, business logic loaded applications?
(for example, Bruce Eckel,the authour of Thinking in Java,has said only half time will be needed to develop same feature/function with java compared with c/c++)
Can we say, only half or two-third of time will be needed to develop most of real world database web/mobile application with jdev/adf compared with eclipse?

Thanks a lot!

Edited by: BAO.SZ on 2013-5-5 上午12:29

Edited by: BAO.SZ on 2013-5-5 上午2:26 someone --Bruce Eckel,the authour of Thinking in 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  • 1. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    John Stegeman Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    BAO.SZ,

    It's going to be hard to get any hard-and-fast evidence for most of your questions, but let me respond to a few things here.
    The declarative way of jdev/adf is only for demo and toy, you cannot dev real complex app on them.
    I'd hardly call Oracle Fusion Applications a demo or a toy, and they were developed with ADF.
    -none of us have enough jdev/adf experience.
    And all of our other team members are not willing to adopt a new tool
    You are almost guaranteed that initially your productivity will go down as you learn both a new IDE (eclipse vs jdeveloper) and a new framework (ADF). Once you've gotten your arms around it, however, for database-centric apps, ADF can be a highly productive framework.
    Bruce Eckel,the authour of Thinking in Java,has said only half time will be needed to develop same feature/function with java compared with c/c++
    Unless someone can give some actual metrics, I tend to discount these types of statements.

    I have certainly found in the past that seasoned Java Developers/Eclipse users do have a mindset against ADF - the objections that are put in place are similar to the ones you mention. The real reasons (in my opinion) for their objections are:

    * They are used to Eclipse and they don't want to switch IDEs (heck, I'm used to JDeveloper, and I don't like using Eclipse or NetBeans, but sometimes I have to)

    * They don't trust Oracle/They like to beat the "open source" drum

    * ADF/JDeveloper does lag behind some of the more agile toolsets/frameworks in terms of supporting new JDK/J2EE standards. This is true, but do you really need the latest whizbang feature to develop your Enterprise App?

    John
  • 2. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Hi,John
    Thank you for your post!

    Basicly we are on the same side.
    What I'm trying to do now is to convince and persuade my teams to adopt a more productive tools to develope normal database web/mobile applications which neednot to be a rocket technology but can save time, resource and money.

    Even though my guys have a mindset agaisnt ADF now, but I believe they will be willing to use a new and more productive one after enough hard and fast evidence have been given to us.
    and this is also we are doing now--try a real world use case use JDEV/ADF, and make thoughly comparison afterwards.
    and the productivity comparison can be on the basis that we have got our arms around both of them (jdev/ADF, eclipse).

    So the task for us now is:
    --To continue the trying in Jdev/ADF with the use case before the end of this month. and hope can get more help from OTN.
    can see the use case at:
    Why the second NamedData variable doesnot work for CreateWithParams?
    How to set default value for a VO query bind variable in a jspx page? (end half part of the thread)
    The big issue now for us is that I know the concept of declarative way but shortage of knowledge on Java.
    and other members are difficult to accept stuffs such as the data controls.

    --Find some hard and fast evidence from guru to support the adoption of jdev/ADF before we ourselves can get.
    I definitely agree that Oracle Fusion Application is a aircraft carrier instead of a demo or toy.
    So, is there any estimation or comparison insider Oracle team on the productivity advantage after they use ADF?
    (Also many years ago, Mr. Larry Ellision gave a good example on explaining the advantage of consolidating dozens of email servers into one in Oracle Company all over world and saved billions of money.)
    I hope you come from Oracle can give more hints.

    Thank you very much!

    btw, I read the statements on advantage of java over c/c++ by Bruce Eckel, in his fourth edition of Thinking in Java (in Chinese translation).
  • 3. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    Timo Hahn Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    BAO.SZ,
    I think you have to get someone with good experience in ADF framework to get the result you are looking for. Most big mistakes are done right at the beginning of a project.

    The OTN forum can't guarantee that you get help in time. All members (or lets say most of them) are helping here for free, to their best knowledge. This however means that you might get advice which is not the best solution in your use case. As you yourself can't evaluate the help you get on the OTN forum (as you currently don't have the experience to do so) you might running into a dead end without knowing it. Later in the project, when you are running into more and more trouble it's really hard to turn around.

    As you already found out it's not that easy to describe the use case or problem in a way that other users of the forum understand it right away. There are multiple question asking for more or other information. All this will take time, without a guarantee that you get an answer at all.

    Guaranteed answers (which might not be the ones you like to here) are only provided through Oracle support. And going this way will take time too.

    For this reason it'S best to get a consultant from your area with expertise in ADF to get your project started and to help your developers sort out the basic problems. Sten Vesterli (http://amzn.com/B005R0DCWQ) " Oracle ADF Enterprise Application Development-Made Simple" is good to get a team started. There are other good book available for the programming side. Check out the book recommondations on http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/developer-tools/adf/learnmore/index-101235.html


    Timo
  • 4. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Timo,
    Thank you for your suggestions.

    In fact, at begining we have tried to connect Oracle area office to get help whenever on training or consulting. But most of the staffs answering the phone even didn't know ADF, and after many roundtrips of phone transfer(to different cities in the country), we got no answer at all. One of them even declined to answer further before I told her my userid.
    It maybe beyond your imagination,sometime. I can tell one more experience of myself,at around last October or Novermber, I got a notification by phone from someone said from Oracle, he invited me to attend a Oracle workshop which would be held in a local hotel a week late. On the next week, I called the local Oracle office to inquiry more, and I got the answer that they knew nothing about the workshop. And they suggested me to inquiry Oracle office in other cities, but none of the Oracle office knew that workshop. In the end, I called the hotel, and got to know there was truly such a event.

    We had bought Oracle training and consulting service many years ago which was about Oracle Designer and Developer, and the consultant was come from USA, and we attended one of the Oracle open world in Los Angeles. To my remembrance, most of the experience and expertise we got were from the entrench--the practical use process, not on class.

    Anyway no more complains, I agree if there were some one have enough expertise on Adf, we would avoid many difficulties now face. But I am afraid it's difficult to find.
    What's more, most of our projects are already on eclipse track which our teams have expertise. Maybe it's my own Oracle sentiment which make me to believe there will be improvement space on productivity if we use ADF, I am the only one have this idea in my teams.
    What I want to do now is to make sure is that the real case that adopt of ADF can bring enough improvement of productivity? And I can put some small but real world project use Adf as a pioneer project. If it proved to be as we hoped, then we can make big change.

    And since we have many experience on requirement analysis, database design,MVC dev etc, What I feel annoyed is some trivial issues when use a new tools. And what I feel great on OTN is there will have someone to response for most of the question within hours.

    Thanks
  • 5. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    Frank Nimphius Employee ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    Hi,

     

    please refer to my answer on Ask for helps and comments for a practicing ADF sample: Entering bank transaction records regarding the Eclipse vs. JDeveloper argument: in fact you can use ADF with Eclipse. For the learning, I recommend you looking at

     

    eCourse - Learning ADF 1

    eCourse - Learning ADF 2

    Oracle ADF Insider - Learn Oracle ADF Online

    ADF Architecture TV - YouTube

     

    Though all of the above is based on JDeveloper, using ADF with Eclipse the same principles apply (except that you use EJB as a model not ADF BC)

     

    Frank

  • 6. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    LindaInci Explorer
    Currently Being Moderated

    Hi BAO.SZ,

     

    may I ask where you live? I am surprised that you cannot find an Oracle consultant who knows ADF.

     

    Regards,

    Linda

  • 7. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    dvohra21 Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated

    ADF support is also available in Eclipse.

    Oracle Enterprise Pack for Eclipse ADF Tutorial

    Eclipse IDE has added support for JDK 8 Beta, which JDeveloper hasn't.

  • 8. Re: What degree of productivity can jdev/adf achieve compare to eclipse?
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated

    Hi,Lindalnci

    Thank you for your reply.

    I come from China, living and working at Shenzhen city which is close to Hongkong.

     

    Here is some more details of my story when I tried to got help from Oracle (China).

    6. Re: Ask for helps and comments for a practicing ADF sample: Entering bank transaction records

    How to get help from ORACLE on Jdev/ADF locally?

    http://223.4.132.24:8180/newsAction.do?method=selectAllPL&commentType=webFavorite&newsId=020010050000032417&webTypeId=#pl

    (This link is from our website, no security concerns)

     

    Thanks

    bao