This discussion is archived
1 22 23 24 25 26 28 Previous Next 413 Replies Latest reply: Sep 23, 2013 12:13 AM by BluShadow Go to original post RSS
  • 345. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    Sophisticated information can be presented to sound reasonable or even as a big scandal and betrayal to the world, in particular when it contains a political message. Maybe it is time to switch on common sense rather than consuming information and opinions and taking everything as face value. We sit in front of the TV and watch news and documentaries, or research information on the Internet, and are often unable to distinguish truth from false or misleading information.

     

    Many may have underestimated the power and influence of the Internet, but I have no doubt that criminals, businesses and law enforcement agencies have already discovered its potential options. It does not surprise me that monitoring and manipulation is done to the maximum extend possible. What might be surprising is the vast effort and broad range affected.

     

    Is anyone really surprised about the information Snowden revealed, or did we not already suspect that Facebook, Internet and Cloud services, mobile devices and mail services, bank transfers, etc. are generally being scanned for terrorism and other criminal investigations?

     

    Someone being paranoid does not necessarily mean they are not being followed. I think the question is what is an unlawful invasion of privacy, and at which point does it or do we allow it to affect our lives.

  • 346. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    It's probably my fault for mentioning privacy that has lead to a political discussion. However, it is the result of the new forum software in regard to user profiles not showing email addresses.

  • 347. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    SomeoneElse Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    > As for the general US public - they have already gave away freedom and liberty with the Patriot Act.

     

    You mean the same public who posts every detail of their lives on Facebook?


  • 348. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    The Patriot Act, in a nutshell, enables law enforcement to detain and monitor people on a mere suspicion of terrorist-related intent and activities. In this context, the controversy section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act may show some interesting information. Freedom and liberty mean the absence of undue restrictions and an opportunity for everyone to exercise one's rights and powers. To say that USA has given up freedom and liberty with the Patriot Act, in my opinion is far fetched and cheap propaganda to manipulate public opinion.

     

    Most people probably do not understand what they sign up with when they start using Facebook, or other similar sites. Most people only see it as a cheap and easy opportunity to have a personal website and communication channel. But what happened to the obligation of service providers and businesses with respect to the disclosure of personal information? I think consumer protection and politicians should be questioned. Unfortunately, there are too many businesses and organizations which benefit from it, and now there are also shareholders.

     

    What really happens when I accept "Friend" requests in the new OTN forum software? According to the Jive documentation, Friends have a two-way relationship: when User A "friends" User B and User B accepts the friendship, both users will be able to add each other to any of their custom streams (even though User B did not initiate the friendship). It seems the option to create a custom stream is not enabled. I think OTN forum management ought to explain what this all means in practice.

  • 349. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    jgarry Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    There was a political cartoon in the newspaper that showed an NSA person monitoring the internet.  All the cat pictures and other typical waste had turned his eyeballs into spirals.

     

    But of course, your comment (while true and humorous) and that cartoon miss the point - it's the abuse of data mining capabilities that is the danger.  This is the capability that Oracle and the Big Data vendors supply.  There's no way they can control such use.  Dude has got this one spot-on, it's an issue of legality.  But common-sense often isn't so good when you start working out the details.  These things get complicated fast.

     

    As to Billy's point about the economics - that all goes out the window with "security," especially with the security logic being flawed to begin with, as he so properly pointed out.  But how can you have logic with changing parameters?  That's the essence of asymmetrical warfare, as well as the internet routing information around "damage" like censorship.  You can't have a procedural solution.  You may not be able to have a complete solution at all.

  • 350. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    sonyabarry Guru Moderator
    Currently Being Moderated

    What really happens when I accept "Friend" requests in the new OTN forum software? According to the Jive documentation, Friends have a two-way relationship: when User A "friends" User B and User B accepts thefriendship, both users will be able to add each other to any of their custom streams (even though User B did not initiate the friendship). It seems the option to create a custom stream is not enabled. I think OTN forum management ought to explain what this all means in practice.


    Direct messaging hasn't been enabled yet - you should be able to follow other people now if you want to see what they are doing.  With the performance issues we were having in the last few weeks and one massive internal bug we've been working on, everything got pushed back a bit.  Direct messaging needs to be load tested and we need to confirm that at no point would a users real email address be revealed.  When we turn it on it will be opt-in, like twitter.  So if you and jgarry are mutually following each other, you will be able to have a private conversation.

  • 351. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    jgarry Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    (hmmm, auto-logged out 3 times in past 2 hours).

     

    I'm not particularly worried about Dude, but if any of the hundreds of thousands of worldwide forum users happens to be a member of the Syrian Electronic Army and asks a question, our metadata is all one degree of freedom from terrorism suspects.

  • 352. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    I'd be surprised if more than 20 people are reading this message. Can everybody please press the likes button to check?

  • 353. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    I prefer email to direct messaging simply because I can always pretend not have received an email - the sender does not know. I can also bounce an email back to the sender pretending it was an invalid address. I cannot do this with direct messaging.

     

     

    What about the option to make the email address visible in the user profile, like it was in the previous forum software? It is currently set to "yourself" and cannot be modified. Could this be changed please?

  • 354. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated

    PhHein wrote:

     

    Timo and Shay don't seem to be missing the feature.

    I don't think so.

    I don't think Mr. Timo is fond of saying again and again "User, please tell us our jdev version".

    (here is a new occurrence: 1. Re: Lov Attribute Problem )

    and I think Mr. Shay's new poll: What your status with JDeveloper 12c can be reached more easily and fully if there were that feature (When a user select Jdev/ADF sub-space to post a new question, the user will have to select a product name and version. This is mandate.)  in OTN now.

  • 355. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated

    PhHein wrote:

     

    BAO.SZ wrote:

     

    Will ORACLE make this enhancement to OTN? or

    Is the OTN architecture flexsible enough to customize features easily?

     

    I hope not, because every user could render the forums useless by ripping apart discussions.

     

     

    I don't think every user will like intentionly to render the forums useless by doing anything possible.--they have their own works to do, their own bills to pay.

     

    I think give users the possibility and ability to reorganize information in this forum to make posts more relevant and meaningful to themselves will bring benefits not only to users but also to this forum.

    An active and worldwide forum like this one will soon become a sea of fragmented information, and because there isn't a smart enough search engine or enough moderators, it will be not a easy task for users to locate exact one posts and list all  relevant ones. --and this the most valuable function of any database information system.

     

    So, give tools to encourage and even force users to help make the information more structured organized and related is a right way to take.

    (branch thread is a useful feature of this new forum, and how to more easily combine different but relevant posts into a new one remains a task.)

     

    What's more, I think there may be two scenarios for a forum :

    1. make users to take it as a kiosk or a bar.

    Only drop in when they have a emergency need, for example to buy a bottle of water or have a drink.

    There is nothing to do with them how the kiosk or bar is organized.

     

    2. make users to take it as a living room or a work office room.

    Everyday, whenever possible they will be there to have thing's done or have enjoyment.

    They will have to take care of the arrangements of the surroundings because that will be part of their daily lives.

    (of course there maybe cases that you don't like the arrangement of living room of another guy. and what you think is comfortable maybe not so felt by another guy.)

     

    bao

  • 356. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    BAO.SZ Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated

    Dude wrote:

     

    BluShadow wrote:

     

    BAO.SZ wrote:

     

    Another question: How can I communicate some one here personally.  For example, I want to send an email to Timo or Frank, but I cannot found email address on their Bio pages.

     

     

     

    People can choose whether they want their email adddress making public or not.  If you can't see their email address they've chosen to keep it private.

    In general, people don't want their email addresses made public, because they don't want to be contacted directly by people seeking help, when the forum is the place to be asking for help instead.  Timo, Frank and other experts on the forum have their own jobs to do and don't want pestering by people seeking free help from them.  They offer their time and expertise directly on the forums.

     

    My email address was available for public in the profile view of the previous software. In the current forum software I cannot choose to make it public anymore; the option is set to "yourself" and I cannot alter it. I have no problem with this being the default setting, but I would not mind to be able to choose. I'm tired of the patronizing by product and software developers!

     

    I have no problem with people contacting me directly. I have received a few personal help requests in the past and have no problem to ignore such requests or ask the sender to discuss their issue in the forum where it belongs. I find that a much better solution than having to deal with the new facebook like "friends" business, which I do not want and reject categorically.

    and more:

    Dude wrote:  Privacy is essential for political freedom and liberty.

    Let me narrow the "email addrss" topic far-away from  "political freedom and liberty"--it's too grand a topic.

    I think there is a need for this forum (or any other forums) to provide users a mean to communicate privately each other whenever by email or other direct messagging tools.

     

    It seems hide users' personal email address from each other by default in this forum can protect users (especially these gurus) from being pestered by some annoyance guy.

    and it's about privacy.--then political freedom and liberty.

     

    But there is another kind of privacy needs to be fulfilled:

    You see, when there is no means of private communication, every word said by users will be public.--there is no privacy.

    But there maybe truely situations which need a kind of privacy, and all are still within themes of this forum, for example:

    --If I have some opinions on the improvement of OTN and I found this may be felt uneasy by someone in public, I would like to discuss it with some one in private first.

    --If I want to invite Mr. Timo or someone else to be a paid consultant of ADF for my company, I think both me and the one invited will not like to discuss this affair in public.

     

    So a very strict privacy-enforcement maybe give some benifits for users (eg. free from being pestered), but maybe also a lose for the whole community.

    (no special deep communications, no more opportunities).

     

    In my opinion, as an adult decent member of any community, most of us will not like to pester others without meaning--it's about dignity of the one himself/herself.

    When I post a quesion in this forum and get no reply, or get answers saying such as "you should not ask other people to do work for you for free". I know it's my own fault. and will try some more good and decent way.

     

    In short, I think there is a need for private communication for this forum, and the way to implement maybe:

    1. Leave the decision to public personal email address for users themselves.

    2. but provide a default one-one communication mean for users.

     

    Thanks

    bao

  • 357. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    BluShadow Guru Moderator
    Currently Being Moderated

    BAO.SZ wrote:

     

     

    I don't think every user will like intentionly to render the forums useless by doing anything possible.--they have their own works to do, their own bills to pay.

     

    I think give users the possibility and ability to reorganize information in this forum to make posts more relevant and meaningful to themselves will bring benefits not only to users but also to this forum.

    An active and worldwide forum like this one will soon become a sea of fragmented information, and because there isn't a smart enough search engine or enough moderators, it will be not a easy task for users to locate exact one posts and list all  relevant ones. --and this the most valuable function of any database information system.

    Unfortunately, whilst most users can be trusted to use the forum professionally, there'll always be those who troll, spam or deliberately cause problems.  Then who is going to take responsibility for tidying up the mess they create.

    This forum has been active and woldwide for a long time, and the information is already organized into relevant categories or sub forums (now called "spaces").  The new forum software allows posts relevant to multiple spaces to be 'shared' between spaces simply by mentioning the other space in the discussion.  The search engines are pretty smart and can find very relevant information, and the number of moderators is generally sufficient (I know Sonya has been reviewing to ensure there are people internal to Oracle are aware of moderating their respective spaces).  I can only assume you've not been around on these forums for long enough to really know how they work, as you're words are not accurate.

     

     

    So, give tools to encourage and even force users to help make the information more structured organized and related is a right way to take.

    (branch thread is a useful feature of this new forum, and how to more easily combine different but relevant posts into a new one remains a task.)

     

    What's wrong with the existing structure.  It's already structured by products or specializations, and structured in a way that fits with Oracle's internal organization.  Giving all users the ability to branch or merge threads is dangerous... e.g. a questioner who doesn't like the responses he's got because he doesn't understand the mistakes he's made himself, unjustifiably decides to branch off all the responses he doesn't like to new discussions causing multiple new discussions that are out of context and that need cleaning up by the moderators.

     

     

    What's more, I think there may be two scenarios for a forum :

    1. make users to take it as a kiosk or a bar.

    Only drop in when they have a emergency need, for example to buy a bottle of water or have a drink.

    There is nothing to do with them how the kiosk or bar is organized.

    Emergencies should be logged via the Oracle Support site, not the public community forums.

    There are also too many products and specializations to have it disorganized so they can just drop in and ask their question anywhere.

     

    2. make users to take it as a living room or a work office room.

    Everyday, whenever possible they will be there to have thing's done or have enjoyment.

    They will have to take care of the arrangements of the surroundings because that will be part of their daily lives.

    (of course there maybe cases that you don't like the arrangement of living room of another guy. and what you think is comfortable maybe not so felt by another guy.)

     

    So, everyone who comes in keeps re-arranging the furniture to the way they want it?  How will that work?

  • 358. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    BluShadow Guru Moderator
    Currently Being Moderated

    BAO.SZ wrote:

     

     

    Let me narrow the "email addrss" topic far-away from  "political freedom and liberty"--it's too grand a topic.

    I think there is a need for this forum (or any other forums) to provide users a mean to communicate privately each other whenever by email or other direct messagging tools.


    Only as an opt-in option.

     

     

     

    It seems hide users' personal email address from each other by default in this forum can protect users (especially these gurus) from being pestered by some annoyance guy.

    and it's about privacy.--then political freedom and liberty.

     


    But there is another kind of privacy needs to be fulfilled:

    You see, when there is no means of private communication, every word said by users will be public.--there is no privacy.

    But there maybe truely situations which need a kind of privacy, and all are still within themes of this forum, for example:

    --If I have some opinions on the improvement of OTN and I found this may be felt uneasy by someone in public, I would like to discuss it with some one in private first.


    You can contact Oracle using otnfeedback_us [at] oracle.com

     

     

    --If I want to invite Mr. Timo or someone else to be a paid consultant of ADF for my company, I think both me and the one invited will not like to discuss this affair in public.


    If Mr. Timo or anyone else wants to put themselves 'out there' to be hired, then I'm sure they'll make their website/email address public visible so they can be contacted.  Otherwise, you should not presume that they want to be pestered by people wanting their help directly. (when the forum works to allow email addresses to be made public by opting in to that)

     


    In general though, if you're not happy to be saying it in public, don't say it.  If it's a private issue relating to your business, log it with Oracle Support.

     

     

     

     

     

    So a very strict privacy-enforcement maybe give some benifits for users (eg. free from being pestered), but maybe also a lose for the whole community.

    (no special deep communications, no more opportunities).

     

    In all the years I've used the forum, I (and most other experts) have had no problem with being able to communicate with those who sought help, directly on the forums.  This isn't a job site or a place for private conversations.  It's a public forum for providing assistance and allowing others to seek existing answers to their problems.

     

     

    In my opinion, as an adult decent member of any community, most of us will not like to pester others without meaning--it's about dignity of the one himself/herself.


    Well, that's good that you wouldn't pester people.  Unfortunately though the internet is full of trolls and idiots would would, and who don't have the conscience of an adult such as yourself.

     

     

     

    In short, I think there is a need for private communication for this forum, and the way to implement maybe:

    1. Leave the decision to public personal email address for users themselves.

    2. but provide a default one-one communication mean for users.

     

     

    1. Yes, users should have the ability to switch on the option to make their emails visible if they choose.

    2. No, there should be no way for users to contact other users if those other users have not chosen to be contacted.


  • 359. Re: Welcome to the new OTN Community!
    Dude! Guru
    Currently Being Moderated

    People have different opinions, different understanding, different agendas and last not least a different character and temperament how to deal with information or answers they do not understand or do not like. If you give users the ability to branch away responses, then you might as well give them the option to delete answers they received. I'm glad that only moderators are allowed to have this power.

     

     

    Let me narrow the "email addrss" topic far-away from  "political freedom and liberty"--it's too grand a topic.

     

    It certainly is when you take it out of context. Discussions often have their own dynamic and the connection of information fragments is not necessarily visible to everyone who enters an existing discussion, especially when it covers pages of information.

    I think there is a need for this forum (or any other forums) to provide users a mean to communicate privately each other whenever by email or other direct messagging tools.

     

    I think every OTN forum discussion should be transparent and public and no exchange of information should be behind closed doors or private eyes. If people want to have a private discussion and perhaps even exchange illegal information they do not need to use the OTN community forum and can use other communication technologies that already exist, such as email.

     

    I agree and also suggested to allow people to choose whether they want to show their email conact in their user profile page. A person may wish to ignore direct messages and friend requests, but the sender will realize and could be dissapointed. With email, the sender has no information whether or not the message was actually received, which eliminates or reduces the ground for possible discrimination or retaliation attempts.

1 22 23 24 25 26 28 Previous Next