12 Replies Latest reply: Jan 6, 2006 10:58 AM by Reise RSS

    Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?

    Reise
      I read the creating tabs chapter in the documentation but I can't understand how to make it work correctly, or in other words, make it work like I want!

      This is what I have now.
      Tab Set     Parent Tab     Standard Tab Set     Sequence     Standard Tab
      20: Reports     Reports      Framework     10     Today
                     20     Log Execution

      Now I wanted to create another parent tab to hold 2 more tabs, but I don't know how to make the 2 top tabs display at the same time.

      This tabs and tab sets things are driving me crazy...

      Any help on this is very appreciated.
      Eduardo
        • 1. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
          Dietmar Aust
          Sorry, can't give you any insights here.

          But I would appreciate some clarification myself, because I get confused each time when I try to create the tabs manually, especially the thing with the parent tabs and standard tab sets.

          Thanks,
          ~Dietmar.
          • 2. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
            Earl Lewis
            Sorry, can't give you any insights here.

            But I would appreciate some clarification myself,
            because I get confused each time when I try to create
            the tabs manually, especially the thing with the
            parent tabs and standard tab sets.
            Tabs are the individual tab entries, tab sets are a group of tabs that you've defined for your application. There can be multiple tab sets at both the parent and standard tab levels.

            Parent tabs and standard tabs are only relevant if you're using a 'two-level tabs' page template, except for the special case of psuedo-tabs (see below). This whole issue can get really sticky if you start out with 'one-level tabs' page templates and decide to change your default page template to the two-level variety.

            If you begin with one-level tabs HTML DB create a psuedo-parent tab to hold all the tabs you create - which get created as standard tabs.

            If this describes your case we can proceed to help along these lines. If not, let us know what problems you're running into and we can try to 'diagnose' further.

            Earl
            • 3. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
              Earl Lewis
              Now I wanted to create another parent tab to hold 2 more tabs, but I don't know how to >make the 2 top tabs display at the same time.
              This tabs and tab sets things are driving me crazy...
              3 things need to happen if you want two level tabs to show in your application.

              1) Select a two-level tab page template for your default page template.
              2) Define your parent and standard tabs with all the relevant pages assigned to each.
              3) Make sure your pages are all using the default template instead of some other specifically assigned page template.

              Obviously, this is a bit of an over-simplification but covers the basics. As I said in the other reply if you change from one-level to two-level tabs after you've started development you'll run into the psuedo-parent-tab and you'll need to fix that too.

              Rather than trying to show your screen with text in your message perhaps you could take a screen shot, post the picture on tinypic.com and send us the link here?

              Earl
              • 4. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                Dietmar Aust
                Earl,

                thanks for the info.

                I have a few questions / comments:

                1)
                There can be multiple tab sets at both the parent and standard tab levels.
                What is the purpose of these groupings, when would I use different tab sets at either level?

                2) I would expect that only the parent tabs are shown when I switch from a two level page template to a one level page template. It is really cumbersome to change the whole tab structure

                3) It should work the other way around, too. When starting with a one level tab layout and switching to a two level layout, I would expect to add the new tabs below and not above as parent tabs. Usually I have a logical structure and want to add more detail "below".

                4) I don't really understand why it is necessary to make a distinction between parent tabs and standard tabs at all. I view it just as a hierarchy (or m to n relationship) of tabs.

                5) It is confusing to start from scratch adding tabs to an application that doesn't use tabs (when going to application > shared components > tabs).
                It is not obvious where to start.

                I have tested a bit more and seems to be easiest to use the "add tab" button on the page definition. This will guide me through the creation of the necessary tab sets.

                6) What would be the best practice approach to a tab layout? Should I start with a two level or a one level layout if I want to be able to switch to the other later on?

                Thanks for your help,
                ~Dietmar.
                • 5. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                  Earl Lewis
                  What is the purpose of these groupings, when would I
                  use different tab sets at either level?
                  If you have a very simple 'information hierarchy' you may not need multiple levels of tabs at all. This is simply a way to accomplish the hierarchy that you refered to below.

                  When you would use them is when your information hierarchy is complex and you need to group and categorize pages under multiple levels of tabs.
                  2) I would expect that only the parent tabs are shown
                  when I switch from a two level page template to a one
                  level page template. It is really cumbersome to
                  change the whole tab structure
                  You might expect that but I believe that the one-level tab page template uses the standard tabs, not the parent tabs - thus the psuedo--parent tab problem mentioned earlier.
                  3) It should work the other way around, too. When
                  starting with a one level tab layout and switching to
                  a two level layout, I would expect to add the new
                  tabs below and not above as parent tabs. Usually I
                  have a logical structure and want to add more detail
                  "below".
                  See above.
                  4) I don't really understand why it is necessary to
                  make a distinction between parent tabs and standard
                  tabs at all. I view it just as a hierarchy (or m to n
                  relationship) of tabs.
                  This is probably just a UI idiom that is intended to make creation of a multi-level tabbed navigation structure easier for users. I've never dug into the tables/entries in the FLOWS_XXXXXX schema to see how it's held in the database. However, I would suspect that you might find a "PARENT_TAB" column in that table structure - not unlike the "MANAGER_ID" column that you might find in an EMPLOYEES table.
                  5) It is confusing to start from scratch adding tabs
                  to an application that doesn't use tabs (when going
                  to application > shared components > tabs).
                  It is not obvious where to start.
                  I find it most useful to sketch this out with paper and pencil to see what might work best for a particular app. This forces you to think about it a little more before you have to start declaring stuff in the database - from scratch.
                  I have tested a bit more and seems to be easiest to
                  use the "add tab" button on the page definition. This
                  will guide me through the creation of the necessary
                  tab sets.

                  6) What would be the best practice approach to a tab
                  layout? Should I start with a two level or a one
                  level layout if I want to be able to switch to the
                  other later on?
                  Ugh! Well.... given that I've gone from one-level to two-level and experienced the problems first hand (but not done the reverse) it might be easier the other way around. Although, who knows what will happen if you try to remove all of the parent tabs?? I suspect HTML DB might want to remove all the children as well!!

                  Earl

                  Message was edited by:
                  Earl
                  • 6. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                    Dietmar Aust
                    Earl,

                    thanks for your feedback.
                    This is probably just a UI idiom that is intended to
                    make creation of a multi-level tabbed navigation
                    structure easier for users.
                    Sure, but I guess they have accomplished just the opposite. And for the already discussed reasons (switching from one level to two level and back) it is quite cumbersome to manage.
                    I find it most useful to sketch this out with paper
                    and pencil to see what might work best for a
                    particular app. This forces you to think about it a
                    little more before you have to start declaring stuff
                    in the database - from scratch.
                    Well that is true. But on the other hand it is quite common to start out small. By time the application grows and you need a different navigation for this now larger application.
                    Ugh! Well.... given that I've gone from one-level to
                    two-level and experienced the problems first hand
                    (but not done the reverse) it might be easier the
                    other way around. Although, who knows what will
                    happen if you try to remove all of the parent tabs??
                    I suspect HTML DB might want to remove all the
                    children as well!!
                    I truly hope that this part will be reworked in the next release ;) .

                    Thanks for your thoughts,
                    ~Dietmar.
                    • 7. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                      Earl Lewis
                      I truly hope that this part will be reworked in the
                      next release ;) .
                      I thought the same - however I'm at a loss how they might make it easier. Maybe they could implement it using some of the AJAX based drag/drop idioms that are becoming popular these days?

                      Carl Backstrom might wanna weigh in on this one. He seems to be the javascript/AJAX guru of Team Marvel. Are you watching this thread Carl??

                      Earl
                      • 8. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                        VANJ
                        I agree.

                        HTML DB 2.0 had huge improvements in the SQL Workshop application over version 1.6.

                        The next version needs to have such huge advances for the Application Builder. It is starting to feel really "aged".

                        The cutting edge in Web app dev environments seems to be Tibco General Interface at http://www.tibco.com/software/business_optimization/generalinterface.jsp

                        The breadth and depth of the product's featureset is amazing. And, just like HTML DB, the product's "application builder" is built using the product itself.

                        HTML DB App Builder really needs to have a more WYSIWYG paradigm. Make a bunch of client side changes similar to how the Web Developer extension or various bookmarklets, etc work. If you like what you see, save the modifications permanently to the page metadata. Right now, it is too server-centric.

                        Most of the time I find myself using FF extensions like Platypus, Aardvark, Javascript shell and of course, Web Developer to tweak CSS/Javascript and get a quick preview before making the modifications permanent. It would be nice if HTML DB could somehow integrate this and make it a more seamless process.

                        For example: changing item properties, CSS style, Javascript event handlers, etc should be available in a right-click context menu on each item. This would make instant changes and clicking a Save button (say on the current Developer toolbar) would make the changes permanent.

                        Similarly, page layout has to have a drag-and-drop option. Template-based layout is great for high-level changes and overall look-and-feel but there needs to be a fine-tuning feature where drag-drop would be very handy. Maybe even draw a grid on the page and allow to drag-drop items into various "cells". Something like that.

                        Thanks
                        • 9. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                          Reise
                          Hello all,

                          I'm gald to see a lot of discussion around this matter as I think (and some other people) that needs some modifications, or at least better documentation.

                          Here are the pictures of my app.
                          app Interaction http://tinypic.com/jrzn8w.jpg
                          app Report http://tinypic.com/jrzngw.jpg

                          tab Interaction http://tinypic.com/jrznlg.jpg
                          tab Report http://tinypic.com/jrznly.jpg

                          Utilization tabs view http://tinypic.com/jrznn9.jpg

                          As you can see only one parent tab displays at a time.
                          • 10. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                            Reise
                            I think I manged to display the tabs as I want but I found something strange.

                            In Shared Components>Tabs the displaying of tabs seems correct as you can see in this picture http://tinypic.com/js0idd.jpg but if you go to page 200 definition http://tinypic.com/js0ig5.jpg the Tabs doens't show anything!
                            How I solved this? I went to page attributes http://tinypic.com/js0il2.jpg and found that the Standard Tab Set is % when it should be Reports.

                            Is this a bug? Or is a undocumented feature? :)

                            To the developers: having many ways of doing the same thing not exactly with the same steps is not good!
                            • 11. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                              Earl Lewis
                              How I solved this? I went to page attributes
                              http://tinypic.com/js0il2.jpg and found that the
                              Standard Tab Set is % when it should be Reports.

                              Is this a bug? Or is a undocumented feature? :)
                              I've seen the standard tab setting get clobbered and replaced with a percent sign before. It appears to happen when the tab that a page references gets deleted - which makes sense. You just need to know that it's going to happen - if that's what happens.
                              To the developers: having many ways of doing the same
                              thing not exactly with the same steps is not good!
                              Not sure what you're referring to here. Can you elaborate on the multiple ways you're using to do the same thing?

                              Earl
                              • 12. Re: Can someone explain the diference between the tabs and the tab sets?
                                Reise
                                I couldn't find right now the situation that I was saying but here it is another one.

                                In tabs management there is no sub-sub-tab for the parent tabs http://tinypic.com/jscdnk.jpg

                                But if you choose the manage parent tabs one the left side it appears http://tinypic.com/jscdjd.jpg