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  • 15. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    186133 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Hi All!

    Oracle Forms is a very productive tool!! I want to see it evolve and merge with JDeveloper/Java. Dont stop the evolution. Give us some new functionallity in the IDE like "intellisense", "Dynamic help", codeformatting, refactoring....

    Now when Java is open source, why couldnt Oracle do a specific Java version tightly integrated with the oracle database at "core level" with new oracle specific "Keywords" of the java language so we dont need to do all this "stupid" "plumbing" through classes with JDBC etc, so we can be more productive, less bugs, less development / maintenance time = Save money.

    I want to see a productivity/maintenance/change/upgrade benchmark over a 10-15year application lifecycle for a "large" application (500 tables 10000 columns, 500 modules) with "old" technology Oracle Forms vs. J2EE.... and calculate the costs/benefits... thats a challange... and a reality... for larger enterprises...

    Michael Åström
  • 16. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Grant Ronald Employee ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    "Now when Java is open source, why couldnt Oracle do a specific Java version tightly integrated with the oracle database at "core level" with new oracle specific "Keywords" of the java language so we dont need to do all this "stupid" "plumbing" through classes with JDBC etc, so we can be more productive, less bugs, less development / maintenance time = Save money"

    This is EXACTLY what ADF does for you - it builds a layer of abstraction onto the J2EE platform so that you don't have to know JDBC (and a whole load of other plumbing). It even gives you SQL based objects like Forms blocks for manipulating data.

    Given that many of the people who worked on Forms are working on ADF and J2EE (me included) we do bring our Forms/Oracle/PLSQL/4GL "ideas" to the framework.
    Regards
    Grant
  • 17. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    25161 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    This is EXACTLY what ADF does for you - it builds a
    layer of abstraction onto the J2EE platform so that
    you don't have to know JDBC (and a whole load of
    other plumbing). It even gives you SQL based objects
    like Forms blocks for manipulating data.
    Any links to help us get started to understand this?

    Thanks
  • 18. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Grant Ronald Employee ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    otn.oracle.com/formsdesignerj2ee

    On this page there is also a link to my blog where I give details on Oracle plans on J2EE development for the Forms 4GL audience.
  • 19. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    564722 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Wheter Forms is history is up to Oracle, but the tea leafs suggest it will, maybe abet of 6 months or so of extented support.

    We faced the similiar situation. 10+ years of Oracle Forms, once free, we paid out the nose for maintenance and usage support. This caused our external customers to shake because we had to pass along the cost to them...which they WERE complaining. Then all the sudden Oracle annouces ADF....which is the same leopard different spots. We strategical sought another solution to migrate off of Oracle Forms onto a pure 100% open source solution. We wanted to get the maintenance monkey payment off out backs. We used in2j (www.in2j.com) which converted to an 100% open source WITHOUT the ADF. Which was a big bonus.

    Now we can pass the savings to the customers and drop our usage fees by 50% and then we increased our marketplace penetration with a superior product at a lower price by 78% in one year's time. Therefore completely eliminating our competition. All because we decide to search for a better solution.
  • 20. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Grant Ronald Employee ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    user561719 - maybe you'd like to reveal yourself...your name doesn't tell us alot about the background and given such a strong and positive message, maybe you'd like to tell us abit about yourself?
  • 21. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    user346369 Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    user561719... only 3 posts. Sounds like a person from in2j marketing. :-)

    I'll bet you won't see anything else from him. He registered 1-March-2007 and made three posts within 40 minutes, all promoting in2j website.

    If they are such a good outfit based in England, then why is his English, spelling and grammar so bad?
  • 22. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    508145 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Yes Steve, his English is bad, so let me try to interpret:

    "Now we can pass the savings to the customers"
    means:
    "We will pass on the savings when there is a savings, but we didn't because there wasn't."

    "and drop our usage fees by 50%"
    means:
    "Our customers complained about our inability to support them, so we had to refund them 50% of their usage fees."

    "we increased our marketplace penetration with a superior product at a lower price by 78% in one year's time."
    means:
    "After a year's time, we finally made our first sale, but only after agreeing to give him a 78% employee discount."

    "Therefore completely eliminating our competition."
    means:
    "We were bought out by our only competitor."
  • 23. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    FrançoisDegrelle Oracle ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    Arf! ;o)))))

    Francois
  • 24. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Tony Garabedian Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nice discussion, :)

    As for if forms is going or not, well it seems like a big issue, I've read and participated in threads almost 2 years back talking about forms that it will be bye gone in a couple of month.
    We are still here using forms and Oracle is supporting (though sluggishly in AS). and probably a new release soon.

    My idea is that both product should coexist and be used together, can't have one without the other.
    In our application we are using both of them together and we have a good result.

    It's like using a race car's engine and components in a street legal car body, you'll get the classic look with all the power you need. :o)))

    Regards,
    Tony Garabedian
  • 25. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    EddieR Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Why would anyone want to convert "PL/SQL to Java source code (for Oracle deployment)"? You may as well just set "go_fast" to "no".
  • 26. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Tony Garabedian Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    :o))

    Use Java for things that PL/SQL and forms cannot do, and don't convert PL/SQL to Java.
    well at least that's how I work.


    Tony
  • 27. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Grant Ronald Employee ACE
    Currently Being Moderated
    Guys - it gladdens my heart to see all us Forms types pulling together! ;o)

    I agree, there was definitely seemed a "marketing" pitch to that post, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and keep the thread open for discussion.

    I agree with the sentiment that you use the right tool for the right job. If pl/sql is right: use it. It Java is right: use is.

    Please don't use it just to tick check boxes or because the marketing guys say "use it". See the benefits, expand the opporunities and maximize your business with the best tools available.
  • 28. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    Tony Garabedian Pro
    Currently Being Moderated
    Exactly, I agree.

    I use the right tool for the right job and I use it to the extent.

    But I would never jump from one tool to the other, or migrate my whole application just because it's a trend or the marketing guys said so, specially if a customer asks for it.

    I only to that when the tool has proven itself and matured (not aged :o) ).

    Regards,
    Tony Garabedian
  • 29. Re: Is Forms going to be History ?
    marussig Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Nice discussion boys! I'm also the one who needs less than 100 post to get gold medal ;-)