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      • 15. Re: Reorganize tables
        601585
        Gee... what is this?
        Does your comment have any relationship with original post?

        Why don't you stick to technological view?
        Why is Jonathan's career important here? Especially when your comment on him is not sure to be true?

        ===============================
        Don added some "technological" comment after i wrote this note. But still oriented to same, old and non-factual stuffs.

        Message was edited by:
        Dion_Cho
        • 16. Re: Reorganize tables
          108476
          Hi Dion,
          Why is Jonathan's career important here?
          Wow, great question, super question! I'm really glad that you asked. . . .

          Jonathan's career is very important here because he is presenting himself as an expert on the subject, yet he has no verifiable experience with the topic.

          This forum has hundreds of posts every day with varying opinions. The people who come here seeking advice are often raw beginners, frequently without the benefit of the recommended Oracle University classes. They want credible responses, advice from working profesisonals with years of hands-on experience. But sadly, many OTN peole get total BS from posers, people who claim to have had a career working with Oracle, but in reality are far less than they appear.

          Dion, Oracle professionals need evidence, proof! We cannot just go on accepting peoples opinions "on faith", just because they have a flashy web site and authored a few books. The world is full of people shouting "Listen to Me! I'm an Expert", and the media is full of reports of "fake experts" getting busted, when their resume is exposed. It's almost become a cliché, the con artist with no verifiable credentials.

          - Would you trust someone, solely because they say that they are an expert? Of course not.

          - Would you be suspicious of an expert who hid his credentials and experience? Yes.

          OTN is not a Faith Based community! We demand PROOF, VERIFIABLE CREDENTIALS that speak to any and all claims of expertise!

          Remember, “Question Authority”!!

          Demand to know who you are talking to . . . .

          Message was edited by:
          burleson
          • 17. Re: Reorganize tables
            601585
            Well, are you trying to tell that Jonathan is a slicker or something?
            Gee... Are you what? policeman or detective?

            Hm... the problem between you and Jonathan is none of my business is but
            I want to point out a couple of things...

            1. This business which is related with Oracle database is realy big and complicated one. People need many kinds of professionals to help them.
            I know myself many of them including backup/recovery professionals, SQL tuning
            professionals, trouble-shooting professionals, DBAs and application developers.
            Please don't tell me that you're professional on every subject of DBMS things.
            No one has reached that. Even the creators of the Oracle can't do that.

            I know many people who have no career as DBA, but are quite good at tuning SQL statements, or trouble-shooting Oracle anomalies.
            And I aslo know many people who have long career as DBA but have no deep
            knowledge on how Oracle works. They sometimes deliver some wrong and dangerous
            knowledge to other people.
            Who would you prefer?

            2. You don't need to be a DBA whose career is very long to be good
            Oracle consultant.
            I've read Jonathan's two books and some articles on the net.
            My conclusion was that his comments and writings are based on the fact.

            I've written 2 books on Oracle performance(locally in Korea) and I know that
            writing a good book is not a proof that the author is a good DBA or a real expert.
            Actually my career is not based on DBA, but based on application developer.
            (Fortunately, that application was dealing with great amount of data-OLAP/DW,
            so I had to train myself really hard to have deep knowledge on Oracle DBMS.
            It became my asset as Oracle professional)
            But, many people would find the book to be helpful on some areas of their job.
            If his book has good impact on others, he should be honoured as some kind of professional.

            Anyway, Jonathan is speaking about himself here:
            http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/index_2.html#Biography
            • 18. Re: Reorganize tables
              Jonathan Lewis
              This is not helpful to the OP, it's link spam.
              Jonathan Lewis
              http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
              http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
              Also, it's deceptive. . . .

              When somebody puts a link in their sig line, it's
              supposed to reveal their experience. Please correct
              me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any evidence that
              you have ever worked as a DBA.
              It's not always as straight-forward as some
              people hope.

              Yes, it is straight-forward. Oracle has offered
              table reorg utilities for over a decade, and they are
              well-proven and reliable. Oracle now officially
              recommends tables (and indexes!) reorgs within the
              OEM segment advisor.

              I've done reorgs successfully hundreds of times in
              mission-critical production systems. Proven value, no
              issues, very straightforward.

              You have NEVER done a real production table reorg,
              have you? Not once, not ever, right? Where do you
              get-off advising a working DBA about something that
              you have never done?

              I cannot find anything on your sig line spam links
              that indicates ANY job experience as a DBA. You have
              never paid a nickel to do ANY DBA work, right? In
              fact, I can't find anything that speaks to your
              degrees in software engineering, revelant college
              education, job experience, nothing.

              I figure that you choose to remain a mystery for a
              very good reason. . . .

              Either put-up some real-world evidence of job
              experience, or stop pretending to be an experienced
              DBA . . . .

              Message was edited by:
              burleson
              I'm not going to bother commenting on what you've said - I've just replied so that the thread has a permananent copy of what you said.

              Regards
              Jonathan Lewis
              http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
              http://jlcomp.demon.co.uk
              • 19. Re: Reorganize tables
                Jonathan Lewis
                Hi Dion,
                Why is Jonathan's career important here?
                Wow, great question, super question! I'm really glad
                that you asked. . . .

                Jonathan's career is very important here because he
                is presenting himself as an expert on the subject,
                yet he has no verifiable experience with the topic.

                This forum has hundreds of posts every day with
                varying opinions. The people who come here seeking
                advice are often raw beginners, frequently without
                the benefit of the recommended Oracle University
                classes. They want credible responses, advice from
                working profesisonals with years of hands-on
                experience. But sadly, many OTN peole get total BS
                from posers, people who claim to have had a career
                working with Oracle, but in reality are far less than
                they appear.

                Dion, Oracle professionals need evidence, proof! We
                cannot just go on accepting peoples opinions "on
                faith", just because they have a flashy web site and
                authored a few books. The world is full of people
                shouting "Listen to Me! I'm an Expert", and the
                media is full of reports of "fake experts" getting
                busted, when their resume is exposed. It's almost
                become a cliché, the con artist with no verifiable
                credentials.

                - Would you trust someone, solely because they say
                that they are an expert? Of course not.

                - Would you be suspicious of an expert who hid his
                credentials and experience? Yes.

                OTN is not a Faith Based community! We demand PROOF,
                VERIFIABLE CREDENTIALS that speak to any and all
                claims of expertise!

                Remember, “Question Authority”!!

                Demand to know who you are talking to . . . .

                Message was edited by:
                burleson
                Another permanent copy.

                Regards
                Jonathan Lewis
                http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
                • 20. Re: Reorganize tables
                  Jonathan Lewis
                  >
                  It's not always as straight-forward as some
                  people hope.

                  Yes, it is straight-forward. Oracle has offered
                  table reorg utilities for over a decade, and they are
                  well-proven and reliable.
                  And yet, if you read the question, you find the original poster saying:
                  "And i found something that whenever i reorganize the tables it won't release space instead the size of the table increases."

                  So that's one user who doesn't think it's straight-forward - and that, presumably, is why he raised the issue.

                  I think the first time I pointed out the obvious difficulty of doing an intelligent re-organisation of a table was in 1994 - and the same old problem is still there.

                  Regards
                  Jonathan Lewis
                  http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                  http://jlcomp.demon.co.uk
                  • 21. Re: Reorganize tables
                    153119
                    This is not helpful to the OP, it's link spam.
                    Jonathan Lewis
                    http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                    http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
                    Also, it's deceptive. . . .

                    When somebody puts a link in their sig line, it's
                    supposed to reveal their experience. Please correct
                    me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any evidence that
                    you have ever worked as a DBA.
                    It's not always as straight-forward as some
                    people hope.

                    Yes, it is straight-forward. Oracle has offered
                    table reorg utilities for over a decade, and they are
                    well-proven and reliable. Oracle now officially
                    recommends tables (and indexes!) reorgs within the
                    OEM segment advisor.

                    I've done reorgs successfully hundreds of times in
                    mission-critical production systems. Proven value, no
                    issues, very straightforward.

                    You have NEVER done a real production table reorg,
                    have you? Not once, not ever, right? Where do you
                    get-off advising a working DBA about something that
                    you have never done?

                    I cannot find anything on your sig line spam links
                    that indicates ANY job experience as a DBA. You have
                    never paid a nickel to do ANY DBA work, right? In
                    fact, I can't find anything that speaks to your
                    degrees in software engineering, revelant college
                    education, job experience, nothing.

                    I figure that you choose to remain a mystery for a
                    very good reason. . . .

                    Either put-up some real-world evidence of job
                    experience, or stop pretending to be an experienced
                    DBA . . . .

                    Message was edited by:
                    burleson
                    Another permanent copy.

                    BTW: When you will start to discredit Tom Kyte, Don? Or Daniel Morgan?

                    --
                    Sybrand Bakker
                    Senior Oracle DBA
                    • 22. Re: Reorganize tables
                      108476
                      I think the first time I pointed out the obvious difficulty of doing an intelligent re-organisation of a table was in 1994
                      What, as opposed to a stupid reorganization?

                      I've never read it. Do you have a citation to this?
                      • 23. Re: Reorganize tables
                        108476
                        I'm not going to bother commenting on what you've said
                        Of course not, it's a matter of Faith, right?

                        I know, I know, we need to stop challenging your authority with these pesky demands for evidence.
                        I've just replied so that the thread has a permananent copy of what you said.
                        Twice, I see. Very paranoid and useless, yet revealing.

                        Tell me, do you take the same backup twice, on the same media, too?

                        Nah, I don't think that you have ever been a working DBA. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and please stop pretending to be an experienced DBA if you are wrong . . . .
                        • 24. Re: Reorganize tables
                          Maran Viswarayar
                          Personally
                          I respect all the OTN members here except the people who post URGENT

                          One thing is more annoying here is some our Experts(Real Experts) are starting to question othere people credentials that doesnt sound good

                          I respect JL,howard but your are just testing their credentials there is no need of that here

                          but one thing is for sure Some people might have done certains thing.some might not have done certains things that doesnt mean those who did are great and those who did not are mediocres

                          you might have done so many production tuning on very high end machines and your recommendations based on those will kill other peoples where they might be running on a average server..So what you have might not help others..

                          Burleson dont mistake this is true

                          The guidelines can only be given but it should be tested it out before running on a Production machine

                          Even the Scripts in Metalink are not supoorted by Oracle World Wide support

                          Why? beacuse sometimes they may go wrong and end up in trouble

                          I had the issue with CTAS method and the metalink Doc was awful


                          So please dont question others credentials here...It will make people to start rthingking wrong about the people.

                          It is shame for people

                          i respect JL/Howard
                          I respect Burleson
                          • 25. Re: Reorganize tables
                            Jonathan Lewis
                            I think the first time I pointed out the obvious
                            difficulty of doing an intelligent re-organisation of
                            a table was in 1994

                            What, as opposed to a stupid reorganization?
                            Absolutely. Stupid re-organisations are very straight-forward, and I'm sure that some people have done them hundreds of times quite successfully in production systems.
                            I've never read it. Do you have a citation to this?
                            You won't have read the original comment - I raised it at a conference as a question to a speaker who had just spouted a load of unqualified tips, tricks, silver bullets and other bad advice that was only likely to be appropriate in a few cases. I think it was about the time you started using Oracle (plus or minus a year) and you weren't at that particular conference.

                            However, if you had followed the link I supplied, you would have found that I made the point in a book that I published in 2000.


                            Regards
                            Jonathan Lewis
                            http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                            http://jlcomp.demon.co.uk

                            P.S. As far as your response to my comying of posts goes:
                            I've just replied so that the thread has a permananent copy of what you said.
                            Twice, I see. Very paranoid and useless, yet revealing.
                            If you examine the evidence carefully, you will notice that I copied two separate posts of yours. I have no idea why anyone else would want to take a second copy of one of them.
                            • 26. Re: Reorganize tables
                              108476
                              I think it was about the time you started using Oracle (plus or minus a year)
                              No, that's not true.

                              I started with Oracle in Oracle6 days with Lawyer's Co-Op, when I already had many years of DBA experience in IDMS and DB2.

                              Unfortunately, you hide your resume, so we will never know YOUR own experience, will we?
                              • 27. Re: Reorganize tables
                                Maran Viswarayar
                                Ridiculous

                                Why do you want his CV?

                                Are you going to hire hime or what?

                                Absurd

                                A great oracle Expert like you invoving in a personal confrontation in a communitity forums is a shame

                                Again I Respect...Thats Different Please Don
                                • 28. Re: Reorganize tables
                                  108476
                                  Hi Maran,
                                  So please dont question others credentials here...It will make people to start rthingking wrong about the people.
                                  I respectfully disagree.

                                  You should question EVERYONE who claims to be an expert. Before you take anyone's advice, I recommend asking to see their credentials and resume. If you do, you will find that many are posers, chronically underemployed wannabees who play around in their basements and try to pass it off as work experience . . . .

                                  Question authority! Demand to know if the advice you get is based on real experience, or idle nonsense . . . .
                                  • 29. Re: Reorganize tables
                                    Maran Viswarayar
                                    intention of Questioning Credentials should not Humiliate anybody

                                    As a human being dont spoil people reputation if you dont like leave it

                                    Simple as That

                                    Franky Speaking JL has never expressed himself as a oracle Expert and never published anything relating to show him as an expert