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      • 30. Re: Reorganize tables
        Maran Viswarayar
        Intention of Question credential is not expose or humiliate anybody

        JL never expressed him as a Expert..and never publishe any links in the forums

        I rspect JL
        • 31. Re: Reorganize tables
          108476
          Ridiculous
          Yeah, lets just accept it on faith . . . .
          personal confrontation in a communitity forums is a shame
          I don't see it as a shame at all. It's a valuable reminder to ALWAYS VERIFY any claims of expertise . . . .

          No, it's not personal. I'll say this exact same thing to any semi-anonymous person who says that they have extensive expertise, but who offers no proof whatsoever.
          Why do you want his CV?
          It's never unreasonable to ask to see the credentials of anyone who gives advice here. In my experience I've noted that a real expert will boast about their extensive experience, a poser will hide their credentials.

          Don't accept anyone on faith . . . .
          • 32. Re: Reorganize tables
            Maran Viswarayar
            Don't accept anyone on faith . . . .
            Thank you


            It not about accepting or not..It s about whether we are taking it or not...

            Cheers
            Oracle
            • 33. Re: Reorganize tables
              108476
              JL never expressed him as a Expert
              Have you seen his web site home page? It's there is big letters:

              http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/

              "An expert view on the Oracle (tm) database engine"

              --------------------------------------------------

              http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/expert

              EXPERT - having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience
              --------------------------------------------------

              - So, where is the evidence of the training and experience?

              - Are you suggesting that we don't have a right to know if someone is truly an expert?
              and never publishe any links in the forums
              Have you seen his sig lines in forums, link spam city:

              -------------------------------------
              Regards


              Jonathan Lewis
              http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk


              The educated person is not the person
              who can answer the questions, but the
              person who can question the answers -- T. Schick Jr


              One-day tutorials:
              http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/tutorial.html
              ____Iceland__November (tbc)
              ____Belgium__November (EOUG event)
              ____UK_______December (UKOUG conference)


              Three-day seminar:
              see http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/seminar.html
              ____USA__October
              ____UK___November


              The Co-operative Oracle Users' FAQ
              http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/faq/ind_faq.html

              Message was edited by:
              burleson
              • 34. Re: Reorganize tables
                108476
                It not about accepting or not..It s about whether we are taking it or not...
                Exactly! How do you know to take any Oracle experts advice?

                In the ultimate irony, Jonathan Lewis says this himself, from his own sig line quote:

                "The educated person is not the person
                who can answer the questions, but the
                person who can question the answers -- T. Schick Jr"

                If it's OK to question the expertise of others, why is so bad to question his own expertise? Jonathan claims to have over a decade of Oracle work experience, why does he get snippy when we ask for verification?

                After all, he recommends "questioning the answers" to others . . . .

                Does that not apply to himself?
                • 35. Re: Reorganize tables
                  610018
                  Don,
                  Question Authority is always good but time and again Jonathan has proved his credentials. I dont care what his work experience is but his publications, his help throughout Oracle forums, newsgroups has been invaluable to oracle community. I dont mind his signatures, links to his websites. I have learned a lot from them and I always look forward to seeing them more. Just the same way you have links to your website in most of your reply.

                  As a Oracle community member, I like to read everything that is oracle here. Just wish everyone keep away personal topics offline.

                  Regards,

                  Oracle DBA.
                  • 36. Re: Reorganize tables
                    108476
                    Hi Dion,
                    are you trying to tell that Jonathan is a slicker or something?
                    Not at all. I'm simply following his own advice:

                    -----------------------------------------------------

                    Jonathan Lewis
                    http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk


                    The educated person is not the person
                    who can answer the questions, but the
                    person who can question the answers -- T. Schick Jr

                    ------------------------------------------------------
                    Please don't tell me that you're professional on every subject of DBMS things.
                    No, of course not, I agree. (I specialize in tuning). However, I have verified experts in othaer areas of Oracle working for me. Here are their resume's, every one:

                    http://www.dba-oracle.com/qualifications.htm
                    You don't need to be a DBA whose career is very long to be good
                    Oracle consultant

                    Sorry, I respectfully disagree! My clients won't touch any Oracle consultant unless they have extensive, verifiable, real-world experience.
                    I know that writing a good book is not a proof that the author is a good DBA or a real expert.
                    Agreed, but it used to be different! Back in the days before the web, authors were carefully vetted for work experience. Even the first Chauncey DBA certification required verification of work experience . . . .
                    If his book has good impact on others, he should be honoured as some kind of professional.
                    Yes, but as you yourself say, that does not make anyone an expert . . . Only training and experience does that.
                    • 37. Re: Reorganize tables
                      590313
                      I'm with DKB on this one.

                      It's not inappropriate at all to ask for verification of expertise.

                      Lewis says he's an expert on his internet site, why does he refuse to ley us verify his expertice?
                      • 38. Re: Reorganize tables
                        cd_2
                        Have you tried JLs Biography Link at all?

                        C.
                        • 39. Re: Reorganize tables
                          610018
                          You dont think Jonathan is an expert? Seriously?

                          I have 10 years experience as Oracle DBA in one of the top Fortune 500 companies. I have all the certifications, all the big degrees and that looks lot impressive in paper. But when I read from Jonathan's paper's(or even from others in this forum), I know how much I lack. Software is one engineering where your age or how big your company is doesnt matter. All that matters is how well you can solve the problem.

                          This is Oracle forum, where we try to learn from one another and solve oracle problem. I am pretty sure, if Jonathan comes to your company for job, he will have his resume in front of you. Until then he does not have to flash his resume or experience.

                          Like I said, when he talks oracle, and if you think he is not an expert, I am afraid, I should ask you to learn oracle.
                          • 40. Re: Reorganize tables
                            424871
                            More than anything else, Don, this is not the place for your childish petty bickerings. Keep that nonsense to your own site. Any points you should care to make should be technically demonstrated without personal attacks or comments about any other poster.

                            Please keep OTN professional and technical. We are here to talk Oracle.

                            -LC
                            • 41. Re: Reorganize tables
                              108476
                              Any points you should care to make should be technically demonstrated
                              So, it's not enough for seasoned experts to talk about what they have witnessed in real-world databases? For example, David Aldridge has general observations and opinions that are worth their weight in gold. Why? Because he is the real-deal, a non-anonymous professionals with verifiable credentials:

                              http://oraclesponge.blogspot.com/

                              Besides, how can you technically demonstrate an opinion, anyway?

                              Most of the technical demonstrations relating to Oracle performance are highly artificial and often un-generalizable to the real-world. Granted, a test case is fine to show how something works, but it's unreasonable to ask someone to do a valid technical demonstration on their employers production server.

                              It's extremely time consuming to do a valid technical demonstration and they often take up hundreds of pages and take days to complete:

                              http://www.dba-oracle.com/Evidence%20of%20Sort%20Sizes%20in%20an%20Oracle10g%20Database.doc
                              this is not the place for your childish petty bickerings.
                              It's neither childish nor petty to ask for evidence when someone presents themselves as an expert.

                              At the end of the day, it all comes down to your subjective judgement of expertise of the author. Does the expert who pontificates about the behavior of mega-databases have real-world experience with them?

                              For a simple example, a few years back IOUG got an erudite presentation topic from an anonymous "expert". They accepted the paper on faith alone, only to find that the "expert" was a poser, a beginner who copied Dr. Scalzo's work!

                              Had IOUG been able to verify his expertise, he would never have gotten away with the deception. (It was embarassing for all. Fortunately, Bert found the plagiarism and got the poser uncerimoniously tossed from the conference) . . . .

                              I don't remember who said it, but it's true: Trust but Verify
                              We are here to talk Oracle.
                              Yes! But OTN is not a "Faith Based Forum". There is a lot of bad advice proferred here every day by questionable "experts" and "Senior DBA's" . . . .

                              If someone wants to say that they are an expert, fine, but they should be prepared to show some evidence to back it up.

                              There is nothing wrong with questioning authority, IMHO. There is nothing shameful in asking for evidence of expertise. . . . .
                              • 42. Re: Reorganize tables
                                Chris Antognini
                                Don
                                If someone wants to say that they are an expert, fine, but they
                                should be prepared to show some evidence to back it up.
                                You posted a definition of expert few hours ago (EXPERT - having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience). Based on it, it is simply impossible to provide some evidence. Please, admit it. In fact someone can only provide some evidence if he/she passed some kind of examination. And, IMHO, for Oracle Database such an examination doesn't exist yet. Therefore, everything else is matter of opinion.

                                Best regards,
                                Chris
                                • 43. Re: Reorganize tables
                                  Jonathan Lewis
                                  It not about accepting or not..It s about whether
                                  we are taking it or not...

                                  Exactly! How do you know to take any Oracle experts
                                  advice?
                                  I wrote a note a couple of years ago about the difference between credentials and credibility - a simple Google search should find it.

                                  >
                                  In the ultimate irony, Jonathan Lewis says this
                                  himself, from his own sig line quote:

                                  "The educated person is not the person
                                  who can answer the questions, but the
                                  person who can question the answers -- T. Schick Jr"

                                  If it's OK to question the expertise of others, why
                                  is so bad to question his own expertise? Jonathan
                                  claims to have over a decade of Oracle work
                                  experience, why does he get snippy when we ask for
                                  verification?
                                  Notice the psychology major at work here - employing the lessons learnt in "How People Tell Lies (101)". The quote says "question the answers" - but the paragraph changes this to "question the expertise". This type of technique is usually called the "straw man" argument. But not many people do it quite so blatantly. (By the way, can anyone find an example of where I get "snippy" when Burleson - or anyone else - asks for verification of my qualification ?).

                                  After all, he recommends "questioning the answers" to
                                  others . . . .

                                  Does that not apply to himself?
                                  Let's examine that "questioning the answers" in the light of this thread. This should be an instructive exercise, even though it doesn't address the original post; rather addressing the key requirement for doing well with Oracle: if you don't think things through carefully, you'll make big mistakes.


                                  Original Post:
                                  I want to reorganize some tables to release some space, how can i find the tables that need to be reorganized. And i found something that whenever i reorganize the tables it won't release space instead the size of the table increases. Can we find the tables which will gain space by reorgainzzation?

                                  My reply - which seems to be a valid explanation of the original comment about tables getting larger after re-organisation. And if you check the link, it expands on this theme by quoting a book that is seven years old - and still correct:

                                  Prompted by this thread, I've just posted a note on my blog about rebuilding tables. It's not always as straight-forward as some people hope.

                                  http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/table-rebuilds/

                                  Your problem with tables being bigger after you rebuild them probably relates to the fact that some of your rows have grown to use up the PCTFREE that you left, and you've now copied these larger rows into new blocks, leaving the same PCTFREE - that will never be used because the copied rows aren't going to grow any more.



                                  The Burleson Response:

                                  This is not helpful to the OP, it's link spam.
                                  Jonathan Lewis
                                  http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                                  http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk

                                  -- Strange, the note and the link seem to address a very specific point raised by the original poster.


                                  Also, it's deceptive. . . .

                                  When somebody puts a link in their sig line, it's supposed to reveal their experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any evidence that you have ever worked as a DBA.


                                  -- Another variant of the "straw man" argument. This one invents a convention so that he can complain I am not following the convention. (And it's a convention that Burleson clearly doesn't believe in, since the last time someone complained about one of his sigs a few days ago it was about the link to an advertisement for a book marketed by his wife's company).

                                  It's not always as straight-forward as some people hope.
                                  Yes, it is straight-forward. Oracle has offered table reorg utilities for over a decade, and they are well-proven and reliable. Oracle now officially recommends tables (and indexes!) reorgs within the OEM segment advisor.

                                  I've done reorgs successfully hundreds of times in mission-critical production systems. Proven value, no issues, very straightforward.

                                  -- It's perfectly possible for this to be true; but it doesn't raise any questions about my response. "It worked for me" is not a counter-argument to the original poster saying "when I did it the tables got bigger". Whatever my qualifications, the original DBA seems to be a production DBA on a production system, and it wasn't straight-forward for him.


                                  You have NEVER done a real production table reorg, have you? Not once, not ever, right? Where do you get-off advising a working DBA about something that you have never done?

                                  I cannot find anything on your sig line spam links that indicates ANY job experience as a DBA. You have never paid a nickel to do ANY DBA work, right? In fact, I can't find anything that speaks to your degrees in software engineering, revelant college education, job experience, nothing.

                                  I figure that you choose to remain a mystery for a very good reason. . . .

                                  Either put-up some real-world evidence of job experience, or stop pretending to be an experienced DBA . . . .


                                  I can't see anything in that little tirade that questions my answer - all I can see is a claim that I shouldn't be allowed to supply an answer.

                                  Conclusion - "question the answer" by all means; but remember that there is a difference between a technical response to "the answer" and a personal response to "the person supplying the answer".


                                  Regards
                                  Jonathan Lewis
                                  http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                                  http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
                                  • 44. Re: Reorganize tables
                                    3520
                                    I'm not going to bother commenting on what you've
                                    said

                                    Of course not, it's a matter of Faith, right?

                                    I know, I know, we need to stop challenging your
                                    authority with these pesky demands for evidence.
                                    You as a Psychology major most probably know this technique called [url http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]argumentum ad hominem and love it, right?

                                    >
                                    I've just replied so that the thread has a
                                    permananent copy of what you said.

                                    Twice, I see. Very paranoid and useless, yet
                                    revealing.
                                    Paranoid?
                                    BTW Don do you remember this article - http://dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/2005_3_28_false_proofs.htm ?

                                    How it comes that this article speaks nothing about false proofs? How you as a master of keywords in article names have done such a mistake?

                                    Gints Plivna
                                    http://www.gplivna.eu