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      • 150. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
        damorgan
        Oak Table membership is by invitation only Don.

        Oh and among your list of respected people who are "not" members? You are wrong.

        http://www.oaktable.net/pageServer.jsp;jsessionid=140DE30131330EF2E488AAE1B4B9DFEF?body=members.jsp

        I guess highly respected people, from your list, are Oakies.

        Strive for accuracy. <g>
        • 151. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
          108476
          Oak Table membership is by invitation only Don.
          Who cares?

          What's that got to do with our topic?
          Oh and among your list of respected people who are "not" members? You are wrong.
          Don't care . . Don't care . . . .

          Don't you have ANY respect for the OP and the other people in this discussion?

          Personally, I don't think that this disruption and self-serving advertizing is appropriate for an Oracle ACE director.
          • 152. Re: My thoughts on OCP
            Madrid
            IMO, There are several factors that should be considered when selecting the right candidate:
            - Commitment with technology
            - Personal motivation
            - Professional goals
            - Commitment with the job
            - Technical skills
            - Certifications

            What does a certification mean for a professional today and what does an oracle certification meant for a a professional some years ago?

            Some years ago, before the course requirements, a professional had to pay just his 150.00 dollars per exam to have the right to be examined. It was expensive for some of them, however, there were companies who were willing to sponsor them. Most of the times, companies agreed to pay the first exam, and in case of failure, all subsequent attempts would be the prospective OCP responsibility. The main requirement for a professional was to study and learn/practice as much as possible.

            Today it is more difficult for a professional, since there are not too much companies willing to afford the course cost plus the exam costs, overall considering the professional may not show loyalty to his sponsor if he receives a better job opportunity. I have met some professionals who pay the course by themselves, but it is not a common pattern, but an exception.

            The course requirement from Oracle University is questionable. I don't have hard numbers to support my statement, but I have seen less professionals in 10g than the number of professionals in previous releases.


            ~ Madrid

            http://hrivera99.blogspot.com/
            • 153. Re: My thoughts on OCP
              108476
              The course requirement from Oracle University is questionable. I don't have hard numbers to support my statement, but I have seen less professionals in 10g than the number of professionals in previous releases.
              Yes, I suspect that it's hurt the number of 10g OCP's. In sum, people should not have to spend thousands of dollars to get an OCP.

              But just look at the OCM, the member list all fits onto one web page:

              http://www.oracle.com/technology/ocm/ocm-10g.htm

              It's too bad that someone cannot just take the OCM practicum without having the OCP first.

              At least that way, people could choose between OCM and OCP, since they would both cost a few thousand dollars each . . . .
              • 154. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
                Jonathan Lewis
                .......................You are wrong.
                Don't care . . Don't care . . . .
                We worked that out a long time ago. But you can't have it both ways - if you don't care about being wrong, you shouldn't make such a fuss when people point out that you are wrong.

                >
                Don't you have ANY respect for the OP and the other
                people in this discussion?

                Personally, I don't think that this disruption and
                self-serving advertizing is appropriate for an Oracle
                ACE director.
                And yet, if we read the thread from the top, the disruption starts here: Re: Hands On Course Requirement

                You can't have it both ways. If you disrupt a thread, don't complain about the consequences.


                Jonathan Lewis
                http://jonathanlewis.wordpress.com
                http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk
                • 155. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
                  damorgan
                  Typical of you Jonathan: Letting facts get in the way of hyperbole and bluster. <g>
                  • 156. People Skills Key for Top Oracle Consultants
                    oraclemagician
                    I agree that having solid interpersonal and business skills is often as important as hard core Oracle technical skills.

                    Case in point- many clients whom I have consulted with for Oracle projects have been very senior directors or executive C-level officers of companies and respect the ability of a consultant to break down the concepts into business terms that they can understand and relate to. My current client loves me because I know the business and can offer the level of service that even Oracle support cannot. In fact, he confided in me the other day that he was tired of dealing with poor customer service from Oracle support because they never were able to get his Metalink accounts setup correctly and in a timely manner even after he paid them to renew the contract!

                    The difference between the best in the Oracle world is not only technical but the business and interpersonal skills must be excellent as well! On this I agree with Don completely. I have seen many consultants and techies arrive to work or a customer site dressed as slobs and with poor hygiene or show up late. Small wonder the client never wants them back.


                    Regards,
                    Ben Prusinski
                    http://oracle-magician.blogspot.com/
                    • 157. Re: People Skills Key for Top Oracle Consultants
                      546612
                      I agree that having solid interpersonal and business
                      skills is often as important as hard core Oracle
                      technical skills.
                      Very, very true. And yet ... Dogbert <TM> uses that very fact to advantage.

                      I can't count the number of times I have followed consultants who were "Impressive. Very smartly dressed. Obviously professional." whose recommendations included "one LISTENER per database", "weekly reorgs of every table and rebuilds of all indexes" and "backup is a disk copy of the database - no need to shutdown".

                      I usually have the opportunity to follow these characters with a detailed ROI discussion, because they leave the execs with a definite taste of "Oracle is expensive".
                      • 158. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
                        633045
                        Oracle itself a BIG responsibility to various businesses. since, oracle wants professionals who are into their technology to undergo a training so as to make their people efficient in terms of concepts for a better approach to resolve any kind of issues. The oracle courses and the exams are designed in such a way that it covers almost every features offered by oracle in a systematic manner.
                        I believe there is nothing harm in investing upon these courses, because ultimately its going to benefit you only. Moreover its been said, if you want to grow, you have to invest 10% of your earnings in upgradation and learning.
                        • 159. Re: People Skills Key for Top Oracle Consultants
                          108476
                          Hi Ben,
                          he confided in me the other day that he was tired of dealing with poor customer service from Oracle support because they never were able to get his Metalink accounts setup correctly and in a timely manner even after he paid them to renew the contract!
                          Yes, I hear that alot too.
                          business and interpersonal skills must be excellent as well!
                          Absolutely! Condescending self-appointed "expert" consultants don't get far. I know of some who have the nerve to respond "You are asking the wrong question", when a client asks a question! He was dumped on-the-spot, and my guys got the gig.
                          I have seen many consultants and techies arrive to work or a customer site dressed as slobs and with poor hygiene or show up late.
                          Yup. My dress code is now taught at several major universities:

                          http://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm
                          • 160. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
                            108476
                            Oracle itself a BIG responsibility to various businesses.
                            Yes, the data is the life-blood of the corporation, and the DBA holds the key. . . .

                            There are database where the downtime exceeds $1,000,000 per minute, and you better believe that IT management is very choosey who supports these mission-critical databases.

                            training so as to make their people efficient in terms of concepts for a better approach to resolve any kind of issues.
                            Yes, especially advanced training in business administration. Some of the best DBA's I know have MBA degrees. Graduates of AACSB accredited business schools (Bachelors and MBA) command a salary premium, as do graduates of highly competitive universities. For example, Oracle Corporation hires their software developers (at highly competitive salaries) from schools that demand hard work, such as Duke, MIT, Harvard and UT Austin.

                            http://www.dba-oracle.com/oracle_news/2006_11_20_oracle_hiring_ivy_colleges_universities.htm

                            Conversely, beginners from Community colleges are often unemployable with no offers at any salary.
                            you have to invest 10% of your earnings in upgradation and learning.
                            Yes! I started as an IDMS DBA on MVS mainframes in the early 1980's, back when Oracle was still a gleem in Ellison's eye. To stay competitive, you must constantly be learning and re-training yourself.

                            And it's not just database technology. My staff must be proficient with all UNIX dialects (HPUX, Solaris, AIX, Linux), understand shell programming, vi, server administration, not to mention knowledge of the underlying business goals . . .
                            • 161. Re: Hands On Course Requirement
                              311441
                              You can't have it both ways. If you disrupt a
                              thread, don't complain about the consequences.
                              Hi Jonathan

                              At various times throughout the thread, Don has:

                              - Incorrectly suggested a seminar series I'm doing In Europe has all been canceled.

                              - quoted insults about me from an alleged email he received (although he's since updated the wording).

                              - made various insulting comments regarding a book I might be writing (although he's since changed the wording)

                              - Referred to me as yet another "myth-maker"

                              - Asked me to grow up

                              - May have suggested I have narcissistic personality disorder !!


                              Remarkably, all after I actually agreed with something he wrote ...

                              And yet he accuses others of not staying on-topic. It all has that sour taste of hypocrisy. All rather sad really :(

                              Cheers

                              Richard Foote
                              http://richardfoote.wordpress.com/
                              • 162. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                311441
                                Hi Madrid

                                I think a key point in this entire thread is the quality of training that's available out in the market. Like I said, there are good trainers and there are bad trainers and if an OCP is tied somehow to attending a training event, then the quality of the training event needs careful analysis.

                                This thread has been excellent in bringing out some of these issues.

                                Can you imagine attending a training event where the instructor initially says "Class, for most databases, using multiblock tablespaces is not going to make any measurable difference to database performance and should be carefully evaluated on a case by case basis".

                                Then on the very next slide the instructor says "Class, you first thing you should do is rebuild all your indexes in a larger block tablespace".

                                Someone in the class puts their hands up: "Ummm, sir, doesn't that contradict what you just said in the previous slide ? If it's not going to make any measurable difference, why should we bother ?"

                                The instructors retorts "why, why, ummm, because the benefits are clearly documented in the Oracle docs, that' why !!"

                                After a few awkward moments, the student puts up his hand "Sir, I've just had a quick check in the Oracle docs and I can't find any reference to there being any benefits in indexes being in a different blocksize tablespace ..."

                                The instructors replies, "Oh, ummm right, well that's because the Oracle docs suck man, don't bother looking in there !!"

                                "Then why say it's well documented in the Oracle docs? And we're back again to why bother Sir with rebuilding all the indexes in a different blocksize tablespace" asks the student again, scratching his head in confusion.

                                The instructor retorts, "Why, Why, Ummmmm, well, because it's always worked for my clients that's why !!"

                                "But Sir" says the student really confused now, "didn't your first slide say for most databases, it wasn't going to make a measurable difference. Why then does it always work for your clients" ?

                                The instructor retorts "What's wrong with you man !! Do suffer from low esteem !! Were you some geek at school, were you teased and tormented or something."


                                Can you simply imagine such a training situation. Can you imagine how confused a student would be after this "training experience". Do they use multiblock sized indexes or don't they ?

                                Now I'm not suggesting for one minute Oracle University are this bad, but if this is the sort of training the OCPs of tomorrow attend, what would that say for the quality of these OCPs ...

                                Cheers

                                Richard Foote
                                http://richardfoote.wordpress.com/
                                • 163. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                  Madrid
                                  Richard,

                                  That's right, there have been spotted several important points in this thread, which in this case, it has been kept on the track most of the time.

                                  I agree, there are good instructors and bad instructors, and it is up to the third party trainers to have 100% student satisfaction policies to guarantee students will have a way to reclaim in case they end up scratching their heads because they didn't agree with the instructor. The point here is to discuss how valid is the Oracle University course requirement in order for a professional to get the OCP. IMO, this is a requirement that prevents independent professionals to get the OCP due to the costs. Assuming today the cost of an exam is 150.00 USD, and the cost of an OU Course is 3,000.00 USD for five course days, it makes the exam cost 3,300.00. If an individual doesn't belong to an enterprise who is willing to sponsor this cost, then for the professional even if he has taken the time to prepare himself for the exam, it would be very difficult to get the money for the course requirement.

                                  Back in 9i, this was not a requirement, and as an OCP it was possible to just get ready for four exams (600.oo USD), which was more affordable than the 3,300.00 USD today to get the same paper. For an current OCP who wants to upgrade to 11g the cost would be just 150.00 if he want to upgrade from 9i to 10g or 9i directly to 11g.

                                  IMO Oracle University should rollback the course requirement, and let it the way it was in 9i. If the candidate wanted to take the formal OU training it would be OK, and if he would rather choose a third party, or even have self-study out from the Oracle reference manuals, it should be up to the prospective OCP, not Oracle University decision. And choosing an Oracle University training should not be enforced by the OCP credential. When Oracle University realizes that enforcing the course requirement by means of the OCP is reducing the number of 10g OCP's then Oracle will change this strategy.


                                  ~ Madrid

                                  http://hrivera99.blogspot.com/
                                  • 164. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                    Hans Forbrich
                                    Back in 9i, this was not a requirement, and as an OCP
                                    it was possible to just get ready for four exams
                                    (600.oo USD), which was more affordable than the
                                    3,300.00 USD today to get the same paper.
                                    According to http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=152 you need to fulfill the Hands On Requirement for 9i as well. The requirement was introduced a few years ago and was added to the OCP for all products and versions. It is not a requirement for any OCA.

                                    In addition, one might note that on http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=112# we see the full list of courses. A smart OCP candidate might notice that the 3-day Backup and Recovery class also qualifies and is priced at USD$1800, so the total for completing OCP is reduced to $2100. The 2-day Advanced PL/SQL course also qualifies and it comes in at USD$1200 for a total of $1500 for OCP.


                                    ---------
                                    One might ask what independent consultants do to maintain the tools of their trade - their knowledge - if they can not afford to invest in training. (Not a statement about quality, or lack thereof, of OU courses.)

                                    One might also ask how good an OCP candidate really is if they can not find these reduced cost paths to certification on their own.

                                    --------
                                    Of course, a significant part of this entire thread is related to 'getting an OCP for the sake of having a certificate' rather than 'having OCP as a verification of attaining a certain level of experience and knowledge'.

                                    That second is, of course, rather theoretical given the state of the industry, and the state of examination monitoring. Which is why my hat is off to any OCM, including yourself, as that examination process does confirm the knowledge level in no uncertain terms.

                                    IOW - my issue is not with the OCP, but with the examination process. AFAIK, the Hands-on requirement is one attempt to compensate for the process. Not necessarily a good attempt, but it is an attempt.

                                    Message was edited by:
                                    Hans Forbrich