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      • 165. Re: People Skills Key for Top Oracle Consultants
        Jonathan Lewis
        Absolutely! Condescending self-appointed "expert"
        consultants don't get far. I know of some who have
        the nerve to respond "You are asking the wrong
        question", when a client asks a question! He was
        dumped on-the-spot, and my guys got the gig.
        It sounds like you may be confusing real-life with the thread here: Re: Trying to make use of bitmap indexes where Daniel Morgan makes exactly that comment.

        Jonathan Lewis
        • 166. Re: My thoughts on OCP
          Hi Hans,

          This is the tip I gave early on this thread:

          I was told from Oracle that "only" official training on Oracle University is accepted to fulfill the "Hands on" requirement. I told my guys to try (when connecting to the Prometric page to request the Hands on approval) to wrote that they received the training from a OPN member and the instructor was a OCP, then 48 hours later they all got their Hands on approved, without any further question.

          This reduces a lot the cost to obtain the OCP certification.

          I hope this help some people to move on with the OCP, because the cost of the OU courses are so high and the quality of some instructors (not all) on Oracle University are very poor.

          I agree with Madrid about the 100% satisfaction from OU, but this only allow the student to have the same course again with other instructor, in my case of 10g RAC administration, I complain about my first instructor, and after take the second one, I did not know which one was worse.


          Francisco Munoz Alvarez
          • 167. Re: My thoughts on OCP
            This is the tip I gave early on this thread:
            There is also Oracle Academy, and I know others who have managed to get the Hands-On Requirement acknowledged by providing affidavits of experience.

            The point I was trying to make: people who are serious about OCP owe it to themselves to study the requirements and to find the legal and acceptable workarounds to any problems they encounter. That includes the financial or business aspect of the OCP cost.

            The ability to find acceptable solutions to problems is, for me, a key characteristic of an OCP. A number of OCP candidates and even some OCPs do not have that ability except in a very very very narrow range of technology, and certainly not in business. IF an OCP is missing that characteristic, my organization will suffer in the long run.
            • 168. Re: My thoughts on OCP

              in my case of 10g RAC administration, I complain about my first instructor, and after take the second one, I did not know which one was worse.

              • 169. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                The entire conversation(virtual) , not the same one and for sure not on the same topic but I did see in a real class.I wont put the entire details here as its not ethical but the conversation was about the "confusion" about the conceptual knowledge delievered about background process and flashback technology.The last comment was "heck I know better than you guys so you must listen to me!".
                To put it in summary, I shall say that it all depends upon how much one is "flexible" and "open" to accept that (s)he is wrong/not aware about a certain concept/s and how much effor (s)he is keen to correct him/her.Docs/slides are also made by humans, just like as they are taught by another humans and "to err is human".How much good or bad one wants to be or can be, I guess it all depends upon the individual itself.
                I know some instructors who spend hours researching their modules and very openly accept in the class that they don't know about a topic but they will research and get back to the student.The best part is they always do get back!And they always admit,we wont be good in a very less timeperiod,we need time to make sure we tell correct things as we are responsible for some one's knowledge and decisions he will take depending on it.And there are some who think training is 9am-5pm job with no home-work involved :-).I don't know how its possible to say even!
                • 170. Re: My thoughts on OCP

                  I do thank you FOR your thoughts about it. It has been a while from the last time I took a look at the hands on requirements. Last time it was the Administration I course (5 days) the one required. By taking a look at the course list a candidate could take, let's say security and he could get the certificate in three days. There are other options which last less than that.

                  "IOW - my issue is not with the OCP, but with the examination process. AFAIK, the Hands-on requirement is one attempt to compensate for the process. Not necessarily a good attempt, but it is an attempt".

                  The discussion, so far, has taken several paths. IMO there is no doubt, a professional commited with Oracle should always upgrade the knowledge and keep on learning every day. The OCP exam should be capable to meassure and certificate this commitment.

                  On the other hand, the industry should have a mean to evaluate a candidate, of course all the traditional and classical resume, the cover page, the technical and professional interviews. But the certificate should be able to summarize this.

                  There should be improvements in the way this exam is administered and evaluated. The hands-on requirement should be so, instead of the course by itself. It is a good attempt, that's right, but it is still on the improvement phase. Setting up a practicum would be a better way to evaluate practical knowledge from the candidate, but how practical this approach could be?

                  The certificate by itself doesn't mean an unknown professional has the knowledge to succeed against the unforeseen situations a DBA has to face in a day by day basis, neither the years of experience he has. But it can be stated without doubt that if a professional has had the commitment to get certified and has several years in the DBA business, then this guy knows HowTo face the unforeseen challenges.

                  ~ Madrid

                  • 171. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                    OCP's should always have a choice to get the certificate at the lowest price possible. It could be considered expensive from the point of view of the average income for the professional vs. the cost of a formal training. Depending on the country, this could mean the total income for one or two working months, or even more, depending on the local economies. From the ROI point of view, this could mean the difference in favor of the OCP when being in a selection process.

                    Considering your particular case, the 100% satisfaction policy applies and in case this doesn't meet your expectancies, this should have been escalated. The course should be of a high quality from the start so this doesn't have to end in retaking it. Being a good instructor is not something that can be achieved in one working week. The instructor should know HowTo manage the class, besides the technical knowledge mastering, of course. It is like the good wines, there are techniques that have to go through a maturity process, and it takes time. The technical knowledge is a requirement, so the capability of the trainer to have this knowledge transmitted in an effective way.

                    Either way, independently of your particular experience, there is something I should point out, the Oracle University training material, it goes through a filtering process that renders a superior quality material that is able to summarize the key knowledge within the course time frame. The slides are prepared to point to the main topics, meanwhile the student notes are designed to provide a very good knowledge reinforcement.

                    I had the opportunity, back in july 2001 to take a course directly from the author, David Austin, Oracle 9i New Features for Administrators, and once more in february 2003, RAC 9i. And I knew about the production process directly from the author's perspective. This is a very huge job. For the author, the effort of creating a training material for oracle university is compared with the effort of creating a Book, and even more, a Book with a practical approach. There are a lot of people involved, the author, the technical reviewers, the technical contributors, and the editor. I participated as one of the members of the technical reviewer team for the Administration and the networking manuals back in 2001, such a great and professionally rewarding responsibility.

                    Being trained directly from the author in a TTT (Train The Trainer) event was such a great experience after the detailed explanations the author provided. However, the course had to be extended to about 60 working hours, since there was no time to do the exercises during the class so we had to make them during the evening.

                    Could you imagine what would it be for a regular 40 hours class to have it extended this way?

                    ~ Madrid

                    • 172. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                      > And there are some who
                      think training is 9am-5pm job with no home-work
                      involved :-).I don't know how its possible to say

                      That's right. Most people think teaching is an easy to do task. But there are several factors involved.

                      - Just the fact to stand in front of an auditorium, starting from 1 to NNN persons is a shocking experience for the people who are not used to speak in public. No matter how technically speaking, a consultant is, if he is not able to do it he may even be considered as a fraud.

                      - Get acquainted with the knowledge the instructor is pretending to teach involves research, reading, and testing, and these tasks cannot be done during the 'working days/hours'. Sometimes people think we have an USB port somewhere in the head where knowledge can be stored just like as if we were some kind of iPods, then we just effortlessly sit and wait for the End of Transmission message.

                      - Manage the group. This involves a lot of complex techniques, but it starts by getting to know the group, i.e. The bidirectional 'Who Are You' process during the first two class hours where the instructor choose the best strategies to fit people expectancies and requirements, and where the instructor credibility is exhibited for the first time. And it goes on along the course. I consider the course a constant exam for the instructor that starts with the first 'Good morning' and ends with the last 'Have a great week end'.

                      - The knowledge transmission process. A very keen task. It is not only important to have a good mastering of the technical issues, but also, it is a must to be able to effectively transmit it to the students.

                      IMO, these are the breaking points where good consultants are separated from the good instructors.

                      ~ Madrid

                      • 173. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                        Excellent points! I agree whole heartedly that a person who has got responsibility to train/teach few other people should take it very seriously! Its not just 40 hours of technical talk,its an overall experience which should be atleat good if not great!If you ask me,this thought sends chills down the spine that some one is looking at you as an expert in the module when you are standing in front of NN people.Its a HUGE responsibilty and I believe its as responsible as to manage a database worth of whatever amount!Being a trainer involves a lot of effort(provided you are serious) and that smile on the people's face with few words of appreciation at the end of the program is some thing that is very hard to achieve!
                        About the price of OCP,I am not sure that I completely agree to this point that the price should be lowered. I believe if some thnig is easily accessible, it loses its credibility.If the price has to come down than the level of difficulty should be very high IMO.That high that people should think twice before enrolling for exam.It should nto be like buying a Coke can that anyone would register,even though he has no idea.People will just enroll to see what are the questions, format of the exam because they would know that the price is low so its okay even if the money is wasted. Like OCM,doesn't matter how much a person knows,he still have to think twice before enrolling for it as its a huge amount and definitely it will be a huge blow if one wont be able to clear the exam.And that makes teh quality a real strong point for OCM takers.
                        These exams are accredations,not the degrees.So if one is aiming for high pay packets after clearing them,that basework, that very credential must also not a "low pay" one too!
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