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  • 15. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    gimbal2 Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    gimbal2 wrote:
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    user2571097 wrote:
    But I also doubt whether the question raised was clear enough for the person to be answered! - just my two cents ....
    Even if my question was not clear enough (which it was), i would expect someone applying for a senior position such as technical architect position to ask clarifying questions. My point from the beginning was, you absolutely are not qualified to become a technical architect with just a certification. Here is how the interview went

    Me - How do you find out what your browser is submitting to the server from a purely client perspective?
    Candidate - I will put the receiving server in debug mode and print out values.

    Me - What if you don't have access to that server?
    Candidate - Well, its my server.

    Me - Okaay, you open your browser and go to CNN.com and click on a link, how do you find out details about that request?
    Candidate - You can't.

    Me - So you are saying you can't inspect what your browser is sending in http requests?
    Candidate - yeah....i guess.

    Me - Have you heard of tools such as wireshark, firebug, httpfox, http analyzer, tcpmon etc
    Candidate - No, never heard of it.

    I ended the interview after that.
    Hmm. Probably this guy didn't know what he was talking about, but still I wouldn't necessarily demand from someone applying for an architect position to know the gritty details of development; that's too low level for someone who should be focusing on the big picture. I'd rather have someone that knows how to design and guide people to build maintainable systems in stead of someone that knows how to sniff packets.
    Don't you need to know the details of the small picture before you can come up with the big picture? ;)
    Not necessarily, no. In the system design you would determine which parts you would do using for example an Oracle database and which parts you would do using an application development platform such as Java or .NET and you'd determine how for example communication between systems happens. But if you do something with an oracle function or a procedure or you use Axis2 in stead of JAX-WS is really not something you worry about as an architect, that is up to the wisdom of the implementing developers.

    At least that's the developer/architect relationship I'm used to and it is quite time efficient I must say.
  • 16. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    maheshguruswamy Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    >
    Not necessarily, no. In the system design you would determine which parts you would do using for example an Oracle database and which parts you would do using an application development platform such as Java or .NET and you'd determine how for example communication between systems happens. But if you do something with an oracle function or a procedure or you use Axis2 in stead of JAX-WS is really not something you worry about as an architect,
    Agreed, an architect doesn't have to worry about it, but needs to know enough about it so that if needed should be ready/qualified to get his/her hands dirty and get down to the gritty details. Which is the point i have been trying to make, a certificate from Oracle won't equip you with the necessary skills needed to do what i said above.
  • 17. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    881149 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I would really like to ask few questions , does that mean individuals having oracle certifications do not show any expertise ? , do those certifications mean nothing ? , an individual who has completed the three parts (part1 , part2 , part3) of Oracle Certified Master , JEE Architect does not hold any difference from an individual who does not have it ? , are all these oracle certifications useless ? . I would like to hear from you guys on these questions ....
  • 18. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    EJP Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    does that mean individuals having oracle certifications do not show any expertise?
    Of course it doesn't mean that. A pointless question.
    do those certifications mean nothing?
    They mean that the person holding them completed the certification course. The question is whether anybody cares. I have been interviewing and interviewed for 35 years and I have never heard of anybody in IT asking for any formal qualification whatsoever. It may happen. I've never seen it or done it.
    an individual who has completed the three parts (part1 , part2 , part3) of Oracle Certified Master , JEE Architect does not hold any difference from an individual who does not have it?
    That is exactly correct. It does mean exactly that. There are other ways to learn all that content. Employers may be more interested in people who have learnt it by experience than in people who have just attended a course and got a piece of paper.
    are all these oracle certifications useless?
    Quite possibly.
  • 19. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    881149 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    an individual who has completed the three parts (part1 , part2 , part3) of Oracle Certified Master , JEE Architect does not hold any difference from an individual who does not have it?
    That is exactly correct. It does mean exactly that. There are other ways to learn all that content. Employers may be more interested in people who have learnt it by experience than in people who have just attended a course and got a piece of paper.
    I assume that you are aware of how these certifications are completed, usually it is not given just by attending a course i believe. One has to sit for a test which is conducted in a test center where that person has to answer multiple choice questions on his own. And the questions have been written by industry experts as well. If someone could answer these questions on his own , then he would have to know something.

    On the other hand Architect certification is not given to an individual upon completion of only one stage. One has to complete a given assignment project (part 2) and submit it to a panel of expert for evaluation. In addition to that in the part 3 one has to defend and justify the design completed in part 2. So as you said the piece of paper is not given to anybody just by completing a course but the individual has to really do some worthy work and defend it.
    are all these oracle certifications useless?
    Quite possibly.
    I do not agree , because if questions are written by a group of industry experts and if someone is able to answer those on his own in a controlled testing environment then it should be worthwhile to have...
  • 20. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    EJP Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    are all these oracle certifications useless?
    Quite possibly.
    I do not agree
    You're welcome. However disagreeing with a statement as vague as 'quite possibly' is pretty dogmatic, especially considering you were the one asking for other opinions.
    Because if questions are written by a group of industry experts and if someone is able to answer those on his own in a controlled testing environment then it should be worthwhile to have.
    Again, quite possibly. You can theorize about that all you like but the acid test is in the interview, isn't it?
  • 21. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    881149 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Because if questions are written by a group of industry experts and if someone is able to answer those on his own in a controlled testing environment then it should be worthwhile to have.
    Again, quite possibly. You can theorize about that all you like but the acid test is in the interview, isn't it?
    Yes , true. However one who could answer successfully in certifications would possibly be able to answer interview questions as long as those are related and withing the subject matter. Anyhow we never know...
  • 22. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    EJP Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    one who could answer successfully in certifications would possibly be able to answer interview questions as long as those are related and withing the subject matter
    Of course. The issue is really whether just having the certificate will get him into the interview, and if so whether it will subsequently get him the job. It's not as simple as 'he knows the answers so he is equivalent to someone who's been practising it for (say) ten years'. He isn't.
  • 23. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    882248 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Hi 872326. I'm also a Notes developer and looking to retrain in Java. Could I possibly trouble you to discuss this, perhaps offline, as I would be interested in hearing your experience and thoughts on the best way to get a job in Java development? See my profile 879245 for email.
    Thanks and Regards. Jerry Shelley.
  • 24. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    YoungWinston Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    Don't you need to know the details of the small picture before you can come up with the big picture? ;)
    A bit late, I know, but I definitely disagree with that statement. The best system/database designer I ever met, by far, was a complete computerphobe. Hated the damn things. He was far happier with a pint of beer, a pen and paper, and his mind-maps.

    Unfortunately, he'd probably be unemployable these days; the industry seems to want people who supposedly "know" whatever alphabet soup of frameworks are flavour of the month, not pure thinkers.

    Maybe that's why Office takes up most of my 3Gb of memory now.

    Winston
  • 25. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    875329 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    EJP wrote:
    Of course. The issue is really whether just having the certificate will get him into the interview, and if so whether it will subsequently get him the job. It's not as simple as 'he knows the answers so he is equivalent to someone who's been practising it for (say) ten years'. He isn't.
    Exactly. One of the reasons to take any certification exams is simply to get into the interview. Based on job listings (Dice, Linked In, The Ladders) no one cares at all about whether you have any Java certifications. No one lists that as a requirement, so no recruiter is checking your resume for that. Recruiters seem to be looking exclusively for number of years in specific Java disciplines.

    I have 15 years in Lotus Notes development and LotusScript is an object-oriented language, so I am hoping that certifications will demonstrate to the hiring managers that my understanding of Java is not simply an extra word added to my resume. That said, I honestly must admit that my current skills in Java are no better than some kid right of school who can accept a junior developer salary. So, it's going to be a difficult hill for me to climb and certification is one of the ways that I can apply myself and ensure learning without spending $2000+ on each Java course.

    The good thing is that scripting in Java is far more like other object-oriented languages than LotusScript is, so the transition from Java on to yet other languages will be easier....

    So, I don't think the certifications will get one into interviews, nor will it get you a job, but I see merit in them as a tool for learning.

    By the way, the Lotus Notes development exams were far harder, did establish whether someone knew what they were doing and were often listed as requirements in job listings. It is, however, not surprising that those who never worked in Notes wouldn't know any of that....
  • 26. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    maheshguruswamy Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    YoungWinston wrote:
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    Don't you need to know the details of the small picture before you can come up with the big picture? ;)
    A bit late, I know, but I definitely disagree with that statement. The best system/database designer I ever met, by far, was a complete computerphobe. Hated the damn things. He was far happier with a pint of beer, a pen and paper, and his mind-maps.

    Unfortunately, he'd probably be unemployable these days; the industry seems to want people who supposedly "know" whatever alphabet soup of frameworks are flavour of the month, not pure thinkers.

    Maybe that's why Office takes up most of my 3Gb of memory now.

    Winston
    Can that person debug issues (if needed) in the system that he has designed? If the answer is 'yes', then he knows the small picture as well.
  • 27. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    YoungWinston Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    Can that person debug issues (if needed) in the system that he has designed? If the answer is 'yes', then he knows the small picture as well.
    That's not the point(*). Can someone who spends most of his/her time debugging programs design databases or systems for large companies? Possibly; but I suspect that if they could, they'd be doing it. It's far more interesting.

    In our current world of alphabet soups, it seems to me that we're fixated on implementation rather than design; and for a proper designer the "small picture" often just gets in the way.

    Winston

    Edited by: YoungWinston on Aug 16, 2011 10:50 PM
    (*) I should have added that if your question was 'can he debug issues in his designs ? ', the answer is, most assuredly, yes. And that doesn't require low-level knowledge.
  • 28. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    maheshguruswamy Journeyer
    Currently Being Moderated
    YoungWinston wrote:
    maheshguruswamy wrote:
    Can that person debug issues (if needed) in the system that he has designed? If the answer is 'yes', then he knows the small picture as well.
    That's not the point(*). Can someone who spends most of his/her time debugging programs design databases or systems for large companies? Possibly; but I suspect that if they could, they'd be doing it. It's far more interesting.

    In our current world of alphabet soups, it seems to me that we're fixated on implementation rather than design; and for a proper designer the "small picture" often just gets in the way.

    Winston

    Edited by: YoungWinston on Aug 16, 2011 10:50 PM
    (*) I should have added that if your question was 'can he debug issues in his designs ? ', the answer is, most assuredly, yes. And that doesn't require low-level knowledge.
    Have to disagree here. In large enterprise systems, low level knowledge is pivotal in application design. If i have a distributed j2ee system load balanced over multiple sites, low level details are essential in design. I would have to keep in mind session stickiness across ssl terminators, ssl cost, network hop delays, topology of dependent systems, keep alives between them, etc etc to design a system. I also disagree about your point about implementation. IMO, an architect defines the high level implementation as part of his/her design. I can't suggest a jsf based solution in an existing spring based shop, can i?
  • 29. Re: Which is the best Oracle certification for a programmer
    701851 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    I have done the Architect Certification for Java and I can safely say that the only things I learnt while doing it is some design patterns that I hadn't used before. The assignment requires no coding whatsoever and just requires you to draw some UML diagrams for a limited number of use cases (in my assignment 4). If you want to actaully learn some hands on skills the the other java certs are far more useful (to learn NOT to get a job).

    I have yet to see a job that asked for certs but I think they may be a "foot in the door" but they in no way exempt you gfrom being asked questions in interviews although some of the lazier interviewers will ask you questions on very similar lines...

    Edited by: WillyM on 23-Sep-2011 08:31
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