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ORACLE Apps VS ORACLE DBA

935112
935112 Member Posts: 1
edited Jul 30, 2012 12:45PM in General Database Discussions
Hello friends,

I m 2012 passout. I like to start my career with ORACLE,i ve two options in mind and want to choose one out of these as my career path
1st= ORACLE Apps
2nd=ORACLE DBA

Please guide me which one is better for future perspective.
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Answers

  • sb92075
    sb92075 Member Posts: 42,196
    932109 wrote:
    Hello friends,

    I m 2012 passout. I like to start my career with ORACLE,i ve two options in mind and want to choose one out of these as my career path
    1st= ORACLE Apps
    2nd=ORACLE DBA

    Please guide me which one is better for future perspective.
    Any expectation to be DBA any time this decade is not realistic.
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    1st= ORACLE Apps
  • 713555
    713555 Member Posts: 824
    >
    1st= ORACLE Apps
    >

    please, the guy is looking for help. not sarcastic answers.
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    please, the guy is looking for help. not sarcastic answers.
    I am serious.
    10307740

    Nobody (no human) will need to do tuning SQLs, backing up and recovering DBs, patching, upgrading... All such routines will be done by software.
  • 713555
    713555 Member Posts: 824
    >
    Nobody (no human) will need to do tuning SQLs, backing up and recovering DBs, patching, upgrading... All such routines will be done by software.

    >

    Oh come on, thats like telling someone they dont need to learn to drive because they seen a video with a car that drove itself in a straight line.
  • jgarry
    jgarry Member Posts: 13,842
    user11181920 wrote:
    please, the guy is looking for help. not sarcastic answers.
    I am serious.
    10307740

    Nobody (no human) will need to do tuning SQLs, backing up and recovering DBs, patching, upgrading... All such routines will be done by software.
    ...Just as soon as we implement that [url http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_the_future] paperless office.
  • Aman....
    Aman.... Member Posts: 22,913 Gold Crown
    user11181920 wrote:
    please, the guy is looking for help. not sarcastic answers.
    I am serious.
    10307740

    Nobody (no human) will need to do tuning SQLs, backing up and recovering DBs, patching, upgrading... All such routines will be done by software.
    Are you ? Where did you read it from that all of this will be done one day without involving humans ? How do you think that is going to work , if it becomes possible even , in so many diversified environments ?

    Aman....
  • Aman....
    Aman.... Member Posts: 22,913 Gold Crown
    If you are a pass out if 2012 and looking for a job , am not sure that you are entitled to mamake options. Rather than making these , you should try to get into a job and learn what you are made to work upon. I would suggest that don't bother about making preferences . Remember even to do oracle apps , you do need to know about database.
    Aman....
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    Are you ?
    sure.
    Where did you read it from that all of this will be done one day without involving humans ?
    First I read it somewhere in Oracle's 11g brochure couple of years ago.
    I know, these brochures were oriented to managers.
    I also was skeptical about what Oracle was saying.

    But then when I saw that with every version Oracle (and other vendors too) are steadily moving towards that direction.
    Every version of Oracle is more and more automated.
    And that automation, comparing with humans, takes into consideration much more factors, before it offers or implements a solution.

    I remember times where we placed tables into FROM clause of SQL in particular order, and calculated optimal storage parameters for tablespaces and even for tables, lay them out on HDD spindles, calculated size of SGA, wrote scripts for backup, manually checked alert log...

    where all this now? IN PAST.
    Oracle does all of it much better in most of the cases.
    And will do even better, and even more.
    How do you think that is going to work , if it becomes possible even , in so many diversified environments ?
    Exactly. Software much better figures out all factors it needs from an environment.
    And it better adjusts to diversified environments, unless a degree of diversity of a particular environment goes beyond some limits.
    It is like a biology evolution - the more brain a creature has the more it is adaptive.
    And RDBMS software gets more and more "brain".

    It is a Progress. And it is inevitable.
    And a general rule for someone who wants to survive on labor market - choose a job where you will not be replaced by some smart software or by robots for a long period.

    And what I am seeing, many of duties and routines of Database Administrator will be done by software very very soon, if not already.

    DBA will not be loaded with dumb routine tasks, so DBA can maintain more databases... and not that many DBAs will be required.
  • Billy Verreynne
    Billy Verreynne Member Posts: 28,311 Red Diamond
    edited May 4, 2012 3:54PM
    Yes, s/w is evolving - capable of more self-management and automation. But evolution also means that it gets new and complex features. Having to deal with bigger data volumes. In tighter and smaller processing windows.

    Likewise, business and IT requirements are evolving. This means that the type and nature of the human side of DBA work is evolving too.

    I've see the death of the programmer announced in the early 90's with the advent of CASE tools that would have rendered the human software engineer as a relic of the past. A decade ago, I've seen many airing the opinion that this is happening to the DBA.

    There are more developers and more DBAs today in IT than a decade ago. Go and figure...
  • jgarry
    jgarry Member Posts: 13,842
    Billy Verreynne wrote:
    Yes, s/w is evolving - capable of more self-management and automation. But evolution also means that it gets new and complex features. Having to deal with bigger data volumes. In tighter and smaller processing windows.

    Likewise, business and IT requirements are evolving. This means that the type and nature of the human side of DBA work is evolving too.
    http://www.oracle-base.com/blog/2011/05/12/oracle-its-not-for-newbies/

    >
    I've see the death of the programmer announced in the early 90's with the advent of CASE tools that would have rendered the human software engineer as a relic of the past. A decade ago, I've seen many airing the opinion that this is happening to the DBA.
    Don't you mean the [url http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/9539/what-trends-do-you-see-for-your-profession-in-30-years]60's?

    >
    There are more developers and more DBAs today in IT than a decade ago. Go and figure...
    The relative cost has come down, but the relative scarcity hasn't, so though roles may evolve, it will still be well remunerated for those who can renumerate.
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    Yes. Sounds convincing.
    However yours and mine are just theories.
    To find the actual trend we need to analyze some stats from job sites.

    for example, if we look into first we find in Google, here http://computer-careers-review.toptenreviews.com/

    we see that demand for DBAs currently is like 7.5 times less than for Software Engineers,
    and Projected job openings in 10 years will be 12 times less - 24,400 offers - lowest in IT.

    It somewhat confirms my theory about diminishing of demand on DBAs.
    Yes, we will not disappear completely, but ...
  • EdStevens
    EdStevens Member Posts: 28,155 Gold Crown
    user11181920 wrote:
    please, the guy is looking for help. not sarcastic answers.
    I am serious.
    10307740

    Nobody (no human) will need to do tuning SQLs, backing up and recovering DBs, patching, upgrading... All such routines will be done by software.
    Yeah, right. You just haven't been around long enough to have seen every such prediction in every area of IT fall flat. When I started in 1981 they were predicting the death of programming within a decade. And the paperless office? Yeah, right.

    The specific skills and tasks change and evolve, but the need for the fundamental skills (an analytical mind and capability of abstract thought being paramount) only increases. So yes, if one thinks in terms of a certain course of instruction as 'punch the ticket' preparation for a specific job title and that job title being your career, then yes, one has to worry about becoming obsolete. In fact, with that thinking one is probably obsolete before they start. But if one sees an entry job as an opportunity for growth, and every task assigned as an opportunity to expand ones knowledge in several directions at once, and sees their 'career' not in terms of job title but in terms of bringing value to their employer ... then one will never be obsolete and should always be in demand.

    I never set out to be a DBA, and given the right circumstances could leave it in a heartbeat. I never even set out for a career in IT. In 1981 I was an unemployed music teacher. I managed to land a job with a government agency as a programmer analyst trainee. It wasn't a career, it was a job ... it was better than unemployment. I never sought advancement, I never sought movement. I simply tried to do the best I could at whatever task I was given to earn my paycheck that month. But by not limiting myself to some pre-concieved idea of 'career', I've actually made a very good career.
  • EdStevens
    EdStevens Member Posts: 28,155 Gold Crown
    user11181920 wrote:
    Are you ?
    sure.
    Where did you read it from that all of this will be done one day without involving humans ?
    First I read it somewhere in Oracle's 11g brochure couple of years ago.
    I know, these brochures were oriented to managers.
    I also was skeptical about what Oracle was saying.

    But then when I saw that with every version Oracle (and other vendors too) are steadily moving towards that direction.
    Every version of Oracle is more and more automated.
    And that automation, comparing with humans, takes into consideration much more factors, before it offers or implements a solution.

    I remember times where we placed tables into FROM clause of SQL in particular order, and calculated optimal storage parameters for tablespaces and even for tables, lay them out on HDD spindles, calculated size of SGA, wrote scripts for backup, manually checked alert log...

    where all this now? IN PAST.
    and replaced by the need for different task.

    But not replaced by the need for someone capable of analytic thinking.
    Oracle does all of it much better in most of the cases.
    And will do even better, and even more.
    How do you think that is going to work , if it becomes possible even , in so many diversified environments ?
    Exactly. Software much better figures out all factors it needs from an environment.
    And it better adjusts to diversified environments, unless a degree of diversity of a particular environment goes beyond some limits.
    It is like a biology evolution - the more brain a creature has the more it is adaptive.
    And RDBMS software gets more and more "brain".

    It is a Progress. And it is inevitable.
    And a general rule for someone who wants to survive on labor market - choose a job where you will not be replaced by some smart software or by robots for a long period.
    Better yet, don't define yourself by your "job." Don't let your "job" or your "job title" limit you.

    And what I am seeing, many of duties and routines of Database Administrator will be done by software very very soon, if not already.

    DBA will not be loaded with dumb routine tasks, so DBA can maintain more databases... and not that many DBAs will be required.
  • Aman....
    Aman.... Member Posts: 22,913 Gold Crown
    It seems that you either watch a lot of sci-fi movies and/or believe on what marketing says :) .
    Every version of Oracle is more and more automated.
    And how many shops you have visited where you have met DBAs who have told you that they are using that automation right "out of the box" . I do extensive travel and every week, meet a group of DBA's from a different company and I can tell you that the answer from me is "none" . There hasn't been a single DBA or shop that I have come across who has told me that they are using any automation just like that without giving it a second look. For example, SGA's automatic memory management solutions are around from last couple of years but I haven't met anyone who has told that in a new database or in an existing one, they have just put it up and now the life is just going on smoothly. Remember, every automation is going to take time to get matured, stable and with every automation, bunch of new features are introduced which would need further development, bug fixings. Yes automation would be good if it can happen and work on its own but that's not possible because , as I said already, the number of permutations and combinations of hardware and usage are far too many and we are not talking about a word processing system but about Oracle Database software which, if not the most complex piece of software code than definitely one of the them.

    And even for a moment, if we do assume that what you are saying is true, its not going to help OP's question because IMO, to enjoy automation, you must know how it works "manually" and if only what you know is to click a button on a GUI screen and assuming that doing so is making you a professional or an expert, its not going to help in the long run.

    Aman....
  • jgarry
    jgarry Member Posts: 13,842
    user11181920 wrote:
    Yes. Sounds convincing.
    However yours and mine are just theories.
    To find the actual trend we need to analyze some stats from job sites.

    for example, if we look into first we find in Google, here http://computer-careers-review.toptenreviews.com/

    we see that demand for DBAs currently is like 7.5 times less than for Software Engineers,
    and Projected job openings in 10 years will be 12 times less - 24,400 offers - lowest in IT.

    It somewhat confirms my theory about diminishing of demand on DBAs.
    Yes, we will not disappear completely, but ...
    You might consider, what if for most sites, the ratio of DBA's to Programmers is 10:1... or 20 to 1? Couldn't that mean there is more demand in the smaller space?
  • apex_disco
    apex_disco Member Posts: 356
    Unfortunately for me, I do agree developers / programmers are more in demand. I have jumped 4 different employers in the last 12 years and in all 4 employers, the developers / programmers to DBA ratio is at least 5:1.

    Having said that, if you are going to be a developer / programmer; you shouldn't even be in Oracle. 3 out of 4 of my former and current employers uses MS .NET technology as their programming platform. 1/4 uses Oracle APEX along with .NET; and only 1/4 uses Oracle FORMS & REPORTS; which means 50% fully uses .NET against Oracle DB. Having no knowledge on Oracle JDeveloper and not looking to find the market share of JDeveloper, I'll have to say, if you are going into Oracle Apps, better to go MS .NET

    Just my 2 cents ...
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    if you are going into Oracle Apps, better to go MS .NET
    I believe that 932109 under Oracle Apps meant big Oracle apps - like Peoplesoft, Siebel, JDEdwards, E-Business Suite...
  • Mark Malakanov (user11181920)
    Mark Malakanov (user11181920) Member Posts: 1,389 Silver Badge
    The specific skills and tasks change and evolve, but the need for the fundamental skills (an analytical mind and capability of abstract thought being paramount) only increases. So yes, if one thinks in terms of a certain course of instruction as 'punch the ticket' preparation for a specific job title and that job title being your career, then yes, one has to worry about becoming obsolete. But if one sees an entry job as an opportunity for growth, ...
    And I totally agree with it.
    However, as soon as set of duties evolves from more technique to more intellectual - the initial job becomes another job. Remove routines, add more fundamental, analytical things and DBA will become DB Designer or Architect.
    Which means that you are talking about different occupation the it has been asked.
    Better yet, don't define yourself by your "job." Don't let your "job" or your "job title" limit you.
    Yes, everyone should try to be more analytical and intellectual on any job place. When I mowing grass I also trying to optimize it. But my role is a grass mower for that moment.
    There are particular sets of duties/responsibilities and related skill sets, named job roles, or professions on the Market. And what is DBA today is?

    http://www.orafaq.com/wiki/Roles_and_Responsibilities

    Installation, configuration and upgrading of Oracle server software and related products
    Evaluate Oracle features and Oracle related products
    Establish and maintain sound backup and recovery policies and procedures
    Take care of the Database design and implementation
    Implement and maintain database security (create and maintain users and roles, assign privileges)
    Perform database tuning and performance monitoring
    Perform application tuning and performance monitoring
    Setup and maintain documentation and standards
    Plan growth and changes (capacity planning)
    Work as part of a team and provide 7x24 support when required
    Perform general technical trouble shooting and give consultation to development teams
    Interface with Oracle Corporation for technical support.
    Patch Management and Version Control


    How many of these may not be automated pretty soon?

    I see only:
    - Evaluate Oracle features and Oracle related products
    Yes, this will be a human thing for long enough time. But how often DBA has to evaluate products?

    - Establish and maintain sound backup and recovery policies and procedures
    Mmmm.. I'd say one can follow best practices. Yes establishing of policies and procedures made by a human's work. But how often you do it? Once in couple of years. An then these have to be followed. And here we have automation!

    - Take care of the Database design and implementation
    Hey!? It is only applicable to development shops. And there this role called DB Designer, not DBA.

    - Implement and maintain database security (create and maintain users and roles, assign privileges)
    yeah. and more and more Oracle is connected to Windows Domain or to LDAPs for it.
    Or it is done in application, like it is done in SAP.
    And if not - how often you have to do it? Once a month may be.

    - Setup and maintain documentation and standards
    Again - how often?

    - Work as part of a team and provide 7x24 support when required
    Oh, sure. Here is a dilemma though. The better DBA maintains databases, the less issues happen. The less issues happen, the less DBA is called for support. The less DBA is called for support the more people and management think, - who is that guy sitting in the corner reading Oracle Magazine and OTN, what the hack he is doing, why do we have to pay him? ;)

    - Perform general technical trouble shooting and give consultation to development teams
    It is only there where developers exist. In development shops.

    - Interface with Oracle Corporation for technical support.
    All interfacing is a creation of SR, and then following what they ask? And how often?

    From that we see - most of the responsibilities are sporadic tasks if not one-offs. Taken that burdens of manual backup, monitoring and tuning is or will be eliminated by automation and self management - what is left for a human here?
    I mean what is left here for a full time human job in average enterprise?
  • jgarry
    jgarry Member Posts: 13,842
    user11181920 wrote:
    The specific skills and tasks change and evolve, but the need for the fundamental skills (an analytical mind and capability of abstract thought being paramount) only increases. So yes, if one thinks in terms of a certain course of instruction as 'punch the ticket' preparation for a specific job title and that job title being your career, then yes, one has to worry about becoming obsolete. But if one sees an entry job as an opportunity for growth, ...
    And I totally agree with it.
    However, as soon as set of duties evolves from more technique to more intellectual - the initial job becomes another job. Remove routines, add more fundamental, analytical things and DBA will become DB Designer or Architect.
    I've long noted that the work I'm hired for and the work I do are not always the same - people recognize it when you are good, and are usually happy to find they've gotten more than they bargained for.
    Which means that you are talking about different occupation the it has been asked.
    Better yet, don't define yourself by your "job." Don't let your "job" or your "job title" limit you.
    Yes, everyone should try to be more analytical and intellectual on any job place. When I mowing grass I also trying to optimize it. But my role is a grass mower for that moment.
    There are particular sets of duties/responsibilities and related skill sets, named job roles, or professions on the Market. And what is DBA today is?

    http://www.orafaq.com/wiki/Roles_and_Responsibilities

    Installation, configuration and upgrading of Oracle server software and related products
    Evaluate Oracle features and Oracle related products
    Establish and maintain sound backup and recovery policies and procedures
    Take care of the Database design and implementation
    Implement and maintain database security (create and maintain users and roles, assign privileges)
    Perform database tuning and performance monitoring
    Perform application tuning and performance monitoring
    Setup and maintain documentation and standards
    Plan growth and changes (capacity planning)
    Work as part of a team and provide 7x24 support when required
    Perform general technical trouble shooting and give consultation to development teams
    Interface with Oracle Corporation for technical support.
    Patch Management and Version Control
    I have to say, I was doing that long before I was called a DBA.

    >
    >
    How many of these may not be automated pretty soon?

    I see only:
    - Evaluate Oracle features and Oracle related products
    Yes, this will be a human thing for long enough time. But how often DBA has to evaluate products?

    - Establish and maintain sound backup and recovery policies and procedures
    Mmmm.. I'd say one can follow best practices. Yes establishing of policies and procedures made by a human's work. But how often you do it? Once in couple of years. An then these have to be followed. And here we have automation!

    - Take care of the Database design and implementation
    Hey!? It is only applicable to development shops. And there this role called DB Designer, not DBA.

    - Implement and maintain database security (create and maintain users and roles, assign privileges)
    yeah. and more and more Oracle is connected to Windows Domain or to LDAPs for it.
    Or it is done in application, like it is done in SAP.
    And if not - how often you have to do it? Once a month may be.

    - Setup and maintain documentation and standards
    Again - how often?

    - Work as part of a team and provide 7x24 support when required
    Oh, sure. Here is a dilemma though. The better DBA maintains databases, the less issues happen. The less issues happen, the less DBA is called for support. The less DBA is called for support the more people and management think, - who is that guy sitting in the corner reading Oracle Magazine and OTN, what the hack he is doing, why do we have to pay him? ;)

    - Perform general technical trouble shooting and give consultation to development teams
    It is only there where developers exist. In development shops.
    No, it is also there when the automatic tuning messes up, or the automatic patching messes up, or the automatic security messes up, or all of those work and there are integrative errors, or the bug that people have been complaining about for several versions suddenly manifests in everyone's face... and even if all that stuff works, "new features" are going to have bugs, teething pains, inappropriate application and is still subject to FUD.

    >
    - Interface with Oracle Corporation for technical support.
    All interfacing is a creation of SR, and then following what they ask? And how often?
    I hardly create an SR, because I interface often by myself. Er, well, I hope you know what I mean.

    >
    From that we see - most of the responsibilities are sporadic tasks if not one-offs. Taken that burdens of manual backup, monitoring and tuning is or will be eliminated by automation and self management - what is left for a human here?
    I mean what is left here for a full time human job in average enterprise?
    If the average enterprise has less than 5-10 programmers, they probably don't need a full-time DBA. Either they rely on outside help, or someone wears multiple hats. I simply disagree that it is sporadic, unless everything is "stabilized at a particular version," which is a polite way of saying "there is going to be a crises upgrade."
  • mk_dba
    mk_dba Member Posts: 112
    Let us come back to original question.

    You can not directly become Oracle DBA or Oracle Apps DBA Professional.
    First you have to work like a sql, plsql, etc developer for couple of years.
    Then learn roles and responsibilities of DBAs and if you like that then you can do it.

    Just follow few steps as below:
    1. Read some fundamental book on database, oracle, relational databases if you have not yet.
    2. Install oracle at home and practice SQL, PLSQL, etc it.
    3. Read Oracle manuals (Concepts, developer, sql, plsql
    4. Visit this type of forums regularly.
    5. Gradually go through DBA, Application manuals

    and don't forget the very first step- works towards getting the job in related field.

    Best of Luck.
  • dba-india
    dba-india Member Posts: 1,497 Bronze Badge
    edited Jul 30, 2012 4:45AM
    The near future is Oracle Fusion Apps DBA. So start preparing for Oracle DBA then do Oracle EBS Apps DBA and by the time you complete both you will see Oracle Fusion Apps DBA. So start it soon so as to complete DBA and AppsDBA by the time FusionAppsDBA comes in and you can start FUSIONAppsDBA with every other oracle expert
  • I don't think you are right.
    EBS is an application on top of Fusion Middleware, and you don´t need any EBS knowledge to get Fusion Middleware knowledge.
    Also Fusion Middleware is mostly not about databases.
    Also I disagree with you the future is FusionAppsDBA.

    ----------
    Sybrand Bakker
    Senior Oracle DBA
  • jgarry
    jgarry Member Posts: 13,842
    Hey manoj, stop dredging up old threads. Someone will notice eventually.
This discussion has been closed.