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Instructor led course requirement??

870083 Newbie
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Hi,

Is Oracle trying to mess up Java just like it did OpenOffice??

I was planning to go for the Java Developer certification in the near future but if it requires one of those courses I just can't...

I bought self study stuff from Sun before which was good and useful but the instructor stuff is just way too expensive! Plus I don't like short intense courses like that, I've done them before and you can't really do/learn enough in that amount of time, I prefer to learn at my own pace around other things so I learn it long term not just short.

It really does annoy me that they have pretty much denied me to do it now. I don't work in the industry so I don't get these things paid for me, its something I do around my job to build my knowledge and experience up to possibly do it as a primary thing or incorparate it in my area of work.

I have passed SCJP before the whole Oracle thing and things where much better than, RIP Sun....

Does anyone else feel the same? Is there no way around this?
  • 1. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    YoungWinston Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    Technical wrote:
    Does anyone else feel the same?
    Yup. Oracle cash-grab; certificates for the rich. Par for the course, according to my friend (who's an Oracle DBA).
    Is there no way around this?
    Not from them; I already checked (I was interested in doing the S(O)CJD certification; but not if it's going to cost me the best part of 3 grand). You may find it spawns some other, cheaper certification courses though. The IBM website might be a place to look.

    Winston

    Edited by: YoungWinston on Jun 23, 2011 12:51 PM
  • 2. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    gimbal2 Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    Technical wrote:
    Does anyone else feel the same? Is there no way around this?
    Don't do the actual exams? Seriously, whats the point if a company doesn't demand the certificate? You like to collect certificates?

    In any case, I can somewhere understand that Oracle lays down that requirement; that way cheats have less of a chance to get the paper because they have to throw lots of money at even being allowed to take the exam. And you make more money in the process, which will always be the driving force behind Oracle.

    As I said, the only real use to doing the exams is when a company demands you get the paper; if you want to prove to yourself that you have a grip on the course material, create something useful using it and show that around!
  • 3. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    Thanks alot for the reply!
    I'm glad I'm not the only one because I only read it recently and I think its put the nail in the coffin for me as far as Oracle goes.

    Like you said its just a way for them to rake in the money.

    I hope the same happens to Oracle that happened to Sun!
  • 4. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    gimbal2 Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    Technical wrote:
    Thanks alot for the reply!
    I hope the same happens to Oracle that happened to Sun!
    Be careful what you wish for. What can happen much sooner than Oracle failing is the fact that they dump Java; it is only anyone's guess what will happen with the platform when that happens. It might flourish, it might spiral out of control.

    Better let Oracle cash in and keep Java something that they can profit off without locking it down.
  • 5. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    gimbal2 wrote:
    Technical wrote:
    Does anyone else feel the same? Is there no way around this?
    Don't do the actual exams? Seriously, whats the point if a company doesn't demand the certificate? You like to collect certificates?

    In any case, I can somewhere understand that Oracle lays down that requirement; that way cheats have less of a chance to get the paper because they have to throw lots of money at even being allowed to take the exam. And you make more money in the process, which will always be the driving force behind Oracle.

    As I said, the only real use to doing the exams is when a company demands you get the paper; if you want to prove to yourself that you have a grip on the course material, create something useful using it and show that around!
    Yes what you say is true but you could say that about any qualification like a degree and even though the point is recognision at the end the other thing you failed to mention is that qualifications/certifications give you structure, a goal to aim for and usually feedback in some form or another.

    Doing SCJP helped me alot for sure, it made me learn stuff that I wouldnt have and made me realise how much I know or don't. sure they aren't the ultimate measure of knowledge but when you don't work in the industry and you have no expert advice it can help alot still.

    I have made stuff but the problem is when you don't have real industry experience you do things in a very bad way often but you don't realise it. I know that for a fact with the area I work in with people just trying to have ago at it on there own.

    I wouldn't mind doing one of those courses if they didn't cost a bomb.
  • 6. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    YoungWinston Expert
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    gimbal2 wrote:
    In any case, I can somewhere understand that Oracle lays down that requirement; that way cheats have less of a chance to get the paper because they have to throw lots of money at even being allowed to take the exam.
    I highly doubt that that has anything to do with it.
    And you make more money in the process...
    Bingo; except I suspect that this one may come back to bite them. Or maybe it's part of a larger plan to phase out certification altogether (I do like conspirancy theories, don't you?).
    which will always be the driving force behind Oracle.
    ...prove to yourself that you have a grip on the course material...
    which is tough to get without signing up for the course. Probably not impossible though.

    @OP: Another thing that occurred to me was to get a book on whichever course you were planning on taking. I was going to do a trawl myself. If I find something, I'll post back here; perhaps you could do likewise.

    Winston
  • 7. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    gimbal2 wrote:
    Technical wrote:
    Thanks alot for the reply!
    I hope the same happens to Oracle that happened to Sun!
    Be careful what you wish for. What can happen much sooner than Oracle failing is the fact that they dump Java; it is only anyone's guess what will happen with the platform when that happens. It might flourish, it might spiral out of control.

    Better let Oracle cash in and keep Java something that they can profit off without locking it down.
    Yes you are right...
    I'm just glad Sun made it most of it Open source before this happened.
  • 8. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    YoungWinston wrote:
    gimbal2 wrote:
    In any case, I can somewhere understand that Oracle lays down that requirement; that way cheats have less of a chance to get the paper because they have to throw lots of money at even being allowed to take the exam.
    I highly doubt that that has anything to do with it.
    And you make more money in the process...
    Bingo; except I suspect that this one may come back to bite them. Or maybe it's part of a larger plan to phase out certification altogether (I do like conspirancy theories, don't you?).
    which will always be the driving force behind Oracle.
    ...prove to yourself that you have a grip on the course material...
    which is tough to get without signing up for the course. Probably not impossible though.

    @OP: Another thing that occurred to me was to get a book on whichever course you were planning on taking. I was going to do a trawl myself. If I find something, I'll post back here; perhaps you could do likewise.

    Winston
    Thanks alot, yes that would be good.
    I got a great book for the Netbeans certification and its been so helpful with learning all the ins and outs of Netbeans especially things like revision systems which I would have never learnt otherwise.

    I wanted to do Developer which I have never seen any good books except one which is old now. I really wanted to do it to see if I was capable of passing, even if I didn't pass I wanted to know what type of things it could involve in a real job. I thought it would give me a better taste for a challenge that didn't just involve building what I want to build and how I want to build it.

    the most efficient way to learn something is with some structure and not just messing around with it (although you need to do that too).

    EDIT: Winston, this is the book I was talking about for Developer:
    SCJD Exam with J2SE 5 2nd Edition
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/SCJD-Exam-J2SE-Experts-Voice/dp/1590595165/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308830299&sr=8-7

    Thats the book I always come across and that I have seen being quoted alot.
    Its not upto date but its the only one that trys to take you through a project etc. so I guess its better than nothing.

    Edited by: Technical on 23-Jun-2011 04:58
  • 9. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    YoungWinston Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    Technical wrote:
    EDIT: Winston, this is the book I was talking about for Developer:
    SCJD Exam with J2SE 5 2nd Edition
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/SCJD-Exam-J2SE-Experts-Voice/dp/1590595165/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308830299&sr=8-7
    Thats the book I always come across and that I have seen being quoted alot.
    Its not upto date but its the only one that trys to take you through a project etc. so I guess its better than nothing.
    Oddly enough, I just ordered it; and was about to put it down in here. The customer reviews seem to be generally favourable (and there are 50-odd of them). Unfortunately, deliveries from the US take about a month to get here (Belgium), so I'll have a while to wait. What I'm hoping is that it'll give me some insights into developing a demo project of my own.

    Winston
  • 10. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    gimbal2 Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    Technical wrote:
    Yes you are right...
    I'm just glad Sun made it most of it Open source before this happened.
    That is true, although it only really benefits the development of the Sun implementation of the JVM. What I don't see happening very quickly is the JVM spreading to new platforms because it is open source; it is not only a complex piece of machinery, Oracle also has a nice legal department that seems to take an interest in Java popping up elsewhere without Oracle receiving a hefty license fee (Google Android being a prime example). That was no different in the time Sun reigned by the way.

    And I can see how certification is a way to get you to motivate you to reach goals. I just hope you can find other means of motivation as well, because software development is basically a continuous learning experience, no matter how many years of working experience you have. There is always a new trick around the corner to replace older ones.
  • 11. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    gimbal2 Guru
    Currently Being Moderated
    YoungWinston wrote:
    What I'm hoping is that it'll give me some insights into developing a demo project of my own.
    Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean by a demo project? Like a project to prove (to yourself) you know the stuff you have learned and are ready to do the certification?

    If so: an IRC-like chat application generally fits at least half of the bill. Networking, multithreading, a good deal of OO concepts, GUI programming; you go far beyond the hello world with it, yet it is surprisingly easy to do for an application involving networking. It can also actually be fun to do such a project, which helps a lot. Of course it is far from original, but that shouldn't be the focus when you are learning.


    BTW: I don't know if you speak Vlaams or French (or both); if you speak Vlaams it might benefit you to order from the Dutch bol.com site; this book was in stock there :)
  • 12. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    gimbal2 wrote:
    Technical wrote:
    Yes you are right...
    I'm just glad Sun made it most of it Open source before this happened.
    That is true, although it only really benefits the development of the Sun implementation of the JVM. What I don't see happening very quickly is the JVM spreading to new platforms because it is open source; it is not only a complex piece of machinery, Oracle also has a nice legal department that seems to take an interest in Java popping up elsewhere without Oracle receiving a hefty license fee (Google Android being a prime example).

    And I can see how certification is a way to get you to motivate you to reach goals. I just hope you can find other means of motivation as well, because software development is basically a continuous learning experience, no matter how many years of working experience you have. There is always a new trick around the corner to replace older ones.
    Nice reply.
    They are a typical example of a big company lining their pockets. They don't care about users or open source, only money. They are just as bad if not worse than Microsoft.
    There is the OpenJVM though, don't know much about it other than the fact it came preinstalled on my Ubuntu desktop and seems to run my applications the same as the Sun VM lol
  • 13. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    870083 Newbie
    Currently Being Moderated
    YoungWinston wrote:
    Technical wrote:
    EDIT: Winston, this is the book I was talking about for Developer:
    SCJD Exam with J2SE 5 2nd Edition
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/SCJD-Exam-J2SE-Experts-Voice/dp/1590595165/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1308830299&sr=8-7
    Thats the book I always come across and that I have seen being quoted alot.
    Its not upto date but its the only one that trys to take you through a project etc. so I guess its better than nothing.
    Oddly enough, I just ordered it; and was about to put it down in here. The customer reviews seem to be generally favourable (and there are 50-odd of them). Unfortunately, deliveries from the US take about a month to get here (Belgium), so I'll have a while to wait. What I'm hoping is that it'll give me some insights into developing a demo project of my own.

    Winston
    Well that was Amazon UK (As I'm from the UK:-D), couldn't you have ordered it from there? Its alot closer :-D
  • 14. Re: Instructor led course requirement??
    YoungWinston Expert
    Currently Being Moderated
    gimbal2 wrote:
    YoungWinston wrote:
    What I'm hoping is that it'll give me some insights into developing a demo project of my own.
    Could you elaborate on that? What do you mean by a demo project? Like a project to prove (to yourself) you know the stuff you have learned and are ready to do the certification?
    Hi gimbal; sorry for the delay in replying. The answer to your question is, basically: yes.

    Getting the book was more to understand in detail what the examiners would expect (which often has more to do with doing things the "right" (ie, Sun, or now Oracle, "expected") way than necessarily best practise). I'm also hoping that I can get an idea from its sample project of the sorts of things that they're likely to want to see.
    A chat project doesn't sound like a bad idea either; I'll have to give it some thought. Cheers.
    BTW: I don't know if you speak Vlaams or French (or both); if you speak Vlaams it might benefit you to order from the Dutch bol.com site; this book was in stock there :)
    Good French, bad Vlaams - just about enough to order a beer and say 'thank you' in Antwerp, where they prefer to speak English than French. Thanks for the site though; I've made a note of it for future reference.

    Winston
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