11 Replies Latest reply on May 14, 2012 3:57 PM by 623479

    HFM - Max Number of Entities ?

      Hello HFM Community,

      We are currently in the process of building out a new HFM application that requires loading of 180,000+ entities. The 180k entities is a requirement and cannot be deviated from. My question, is there a system limitation on the maximun number of entities that can be loaded in an HFM application.

      Since we started building the new application, the system performance has taken a serious hit in regards to the time it takes to load metadata, running consolidations, logging into the application, etc.

      System Architecture:

      EPM - distrbuted accross 8 Windows 2008 Server x64 bit
      32 Gigs of RAM - distributed
      1 HFM Web Server
      4 HFM App Servers
      1 Shared/Foundation Server
      1 FDM Server

      Any feedback would be appreciated.

      Thank you,
        • 1. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
          I just checked my calendar to see if it was April 1, it's not. :-)

          Bear with me as I understand it is a requirement on your end, but what in the wrold do you need that for? Perhaps talking about that out loud will lead to an alternate solution that you can propose to get your requirement changed?

          Are all of these entities at the same level? (that would be worse) If they are all at one level, it would help to add some parent entities and subdivide them.

          What are the specs on the 4 App Servers? (most interested in RAM)
          How many concurrent users do you have?

          It sounds to me your best bet here is to max out your RAM in the app servers and made the appropriate registry settings to ensure you are taking use of the memory. Perhaps having more memory per app server will help it load/cache the data it needs. I would take a look at page faults on these machines and cache hits/misses to get an idea of what the memory situation is.
          • 2. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
            Thanks for the quick response.

            The reason for this requirement is that we have a Opco with a legacy Enterprise application which has been around for years and their design currently works well for them.

            The 180k entitiy members are comprised of the business unit, geo location, part number and prodline. There are many alternate hierarchies and not all base members. Once we can bring accross the entities, load data and reconcile, we can they design the application using Custom 1 - 4 for geo location, PN and prodline. Unfournately, we need to bring it across as is to understand the conceptual concept we propose on using.

            Currently, we have allocated 4GB per server with the ability of expansion. Before adding addtional system resources, i want to make sure that having 180k entities is achievable.

            • 3. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
              Sorry, forgot to inlcude the only users in the system are me and another developer.
              • 4. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?

                After reviewing the performance documents / subcube architecture documents, I see nothing that indicates an actual set number.

                Looking at the database strucuture, the ItemID field for the Entity tables (i.e. unique ID field) is a 4 byte integer which has a max value of over 2 billion.

                Hypothetically speaking, there shouldn't be an issue here other than it's crazy. :-)

                Since this is just a dev type environment, I'd almost think you want one App server with as much RAM as you can throw at it. (update registry settings accordingly)

                One other suggestion : Ditch the rules files. (or at least everything that you absolutely don't need) [Assuming there is one]

                Other suggestion : Make multiple applications and subdivide the data/entities that way. Combine the data and then extract and load it all to the final application for everything?
                • 5. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                  Thank you very much for the explanations and feedback. I completley agree with you in the sense that it's crazy to have this many members. Unfortunately, with this being a new customer we need to make them happy! :)

                  Can you tell me where you found the sub-cube document? I had this for V4.02, however I haven't found a recent version.

                  Thanks again for your help!

                  • 6. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                    There is no specific limit to the number of entities in an HFM application.

                    That said, you are proposing a deeply problematic application. For most applications the consolidation time equates to between 0.25 and 2.0 seconds per entity, per period. using this rule of thumb, you are looking at between 12 and 48 hours to consolidate each period. Given typical data volumes, you may create a database that exceeds a few hundred gigabytes (or about 10-20 times normal).

                    I highly recommend revisiting the application design before going down this road.

                    • 7. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                      Try these documents out for some frame of reference :


                      Performance Tuning Guide
                      Support.Oracle.com -> Hyperion Financial Management (HFM) Performance Tuning Guide, Fusion Edition [ID 1083460.1]

                      Subcube architecture Guide
                      I have a local copy, but cannot find it on-line at the moment, but the 'newer' version was :

                      "Hyperion System 9 Financial Management - Subcube Architecture April 2006"

                      From what I recall, it didn't change significantly from the HFM 4 document. This document is also the one I just looked over when I stated it didn't make any mention about entity limits.

                      Hope that helps.
                      • 8. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                        Thanks for the feedback Chris. I will definately share these responses with the team.

                        Would this application design perform better under the file based Enterprise system oppossed to HFM? I have very little experience with Enterprise and I'm trying to understand how they are running with this design for so long and not suffering from majory system performance issues.

                        • 9. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                          I had a feeling the document wouldn't have changed much.

                          Thanks again for your feedback!

                          • 10. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                            There cannot be a direct comparison between Enterprise and HFM for many reasons. Among them is that the HFM architecture is geared toward concurrency and scalability in terms of user count. The Hyperion Enterprise application with 180,000 entities would like have never been designed that way if it had more dimensionality like HFM has. I personally have built Enterprise applications with easily that number of entities (still, a poor design), but if those customers had HFM it would have been a fraction that number. I'm guessing the 180,000 entities is because Cost Center is embedded in the entity dimension, whereas in HFM it would be better in a custom dimension. I strongly recommend applying creativity in redesigning the application and using your skills as a consultant to lead the customer to change.

                            "Re-platforming" from Enterprise to HFM without redesigning the application and supporting processes is a mistake, leading not only to performance concerns we've already expressed, but also an unhappy customer who would have missed out on key functionality of HFM. Look hard at the entities and I'm certain you will see other dimensions living in the entity dimension that should be moved out into the custom dimensions in HFM. This is apparent in naming patterns, often visible by segments of the label separated by underscores. I've worked with Enterprise for 15 years now, and HFM since its inception in 2001, and I encourage you to not allow the customer's content with the current design to lead to a disaster in HFM in the future.

                            • 11. Re: HFM - Max Number of Entities ?
                              Thanks for that great explanation Chris. Much appreciated....