14 Replies Latest reply on Jul 27, 2018 4:52 PM by Alanc-Oracle

    Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing

    Scott S.

      After updating latest and # pkg update --accept

       

                  Packages to remove:   2

                 Packages to install:   1

                  Packages to update: 377

             Create boot environment: Yes

      Create backup boot environment:  No

       

      Changed packages:

      solaris

        file/mc

          4.8.17-11.4.0.0.0.12.0 -> None

       

      # pkg list file/mc

      NAME (PUBLISHER)                                  VERSION                    IFO

      file/mc                                           4.8.17-11.4.0.0.0.12.0     i--

       

      Without this file based browser, what can I use as the closest equivalent or can this be put back? I kind of need this. If no more support how can I simply have an updated repo but leave this package untouched?

       

      Strange when I did this.. froze mc then update only 2 packages?

       

      # pkg freeze mc

      file/mc was frozen at 4.8.17-11.4.0.0.0.12.0:20180103T025134Z

      # pkg update --accept

                  Packages to update:   2

             Create boot environment:  No

      Create backup boot environment: Yes

       

       

      DOWNLOAD                                PKGS         FILES    XFER (MB)   SPEED

      Completed                                2/2           4/4      0.0/0.0      --

       

       

      PHASE                                          ITEMS

      Removing old actions                             2/2

      Installing new actions                           2/2

      Updating modified actions                        3/3

      Updating package state database                 Done

      Updating package cache                           2/2

      Updating image state                            Done

      Creating fast lookup database                   Done

      Updating package cache                           1/1

       

      # pkg unfreeze mc

      file/mc was unfrozen.

       

      # pkg freeze -n file/mc

      file/mc was frozen at 4.8.17-11.4.0.0.0.12.0:20180103T025134Z

       

      # pkg update --accept -nv

                  Packages to remove:         2

                 Packages to install:         1

                  Packages to update:       375

           Estimated space available: 103.90 GB

      Estimated space to be consumed:   1.28 GB

             Create boot environment:       Yes

           Activate boot environment:       Yes

      Create backup boot environment:        No

                Rebuild boot archive:       Yes

       

       

      Changed packages:

      solaris

        file/mc

          4.8.17-11.4.0.0.0.12.0 -> None

        image/library/libpng

          1.4.20-11.4.0.0.0.12.0 -> None

       

      Is something not working or am I misunderstanding? "Because the package is frozen, it cannot be updated." but can be removed? https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E36784_01/html/E36802/tspkginstall.html

       

      I've done a quick test updating everything then reboot -f into the new BE.

       

                  Packages to remove:   2

                 Packages to install:   1

                  Packages to update: 375

             Create boot environment: Yes

      Create backup boot environment:  No

       

       

      DOWNLOAD                                PKGS         FILES    XFER (MB)   SPEED

      Completed                            378/378     8770/8770  215.4/215.4  317k/s

       

       

      PHASE                                          ITEMS

      Removing old actions                       4909/4909

      Installing new actions                     4216/4216

      Updating modified actions                13140/13140

      Updating package state database                 Done

      Updating package cache                       377/377

      Updating image state                            Done

      Creating fast lookup database                   Done

      Updating package cache                           1/1

       

      #reboot -f

      As expected just for now as I test...

      # mc

      -bash: mc: command not found

      # pkg update -nv

      No updates available for this image.

      # zpool upgrade

      This system is currently running ZFS pool version 44.

      The following pools are out of date, and can be upgraded.  After being

      upgraded, these pools will no longer be accessible by older software versions.

       

      VER  POOL

      ---  ------------

      43   data

      43   rpool

       

      # zpool upgrade data

      This system is currently running ZFS pool version 44.

       

      Successfully upgraded 'data' from version 43 to version 44.

      "44  Device removal" - wonder if it would be possible to read up anywhere on the specific version numbers for further info?

       

      svcs -x

      fmadm faulty

      dmesg

      all clean.

       

      So far things are looking okay on first basic test and checks.

        • 1. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
          Alanc-Oracle

          Yes, as noted in the End of Feature Notices for Oracle Solaris 11 the Midnight Commander file browser is no longer bundled with Solaris 11.4.

           

          It's open source, so you can of course build it yourself or install it from a 3rd party FOSS provider - just because we don't bundle it doesn't mean it won't run.

           

          As for pkg freeze, the problem you hit there is that by default, all the OS packages are tied together to be upgraded in sync via the use of IPS incorporations, so you can always get a package combination we've tested.  You can opt out of that and unlock the file/mc package to allow freezing it without freezing the entire OS - the unlock mechanism is described in Relaxing Version Constraints Specified by Constraint Packages.  But that leaves you without any further updates to the mc package for new features or bug fixes, so finding an alternate source (either your own builds or someone else's) is probably a better long term plan.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
            899664

            There are some barriers in Oracle Solaris 11.4 that hinders a "it just work" experience. For me a missing mc is one of them.

             

            Luckily midnight commander is just copy and run so you can install it on a former release of Solaris (or even a fork) and copy the needed files over. Much easier than trying to compile or to find a repository that works with Solaris. You can for example download http://openzfs.hfg-gmuend.de/midnight_commander/mc-4.8.19.zip, unzip, copy the files to / and make the binary /usr/bin/mc executable.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
              868555

              Gnome Commander is a mc clone. But it uses X11, so if you are sysadmins using the command line, gnome commander is of no use for you.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                Scott S.

                Ok. After a few recent posts and other peoples comments it looks like mc is a package that people need OOTB. Why was it dropped? I'm just talking about mc from command line only but thanks for the info on Gnome Commander. Looks like I may need to write some post install script to do those steps after the install for mc or do them manually then generate a UAR from that system.

                • 5. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                  Alanc-Oracle

                  It was dropped because it was not considered essential enough to make it a high priority, and fell below the line when we were forced to evaluate what packages to keep or drop after last year's reduction in staff.   It's not something we've heard is a requirement from customers who reach out via their sales reps or engineering contacts.

                  • 6. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                    Alanc-Oracle

                    899664 wrote:

                     

                    to find a repository that works with Solaris

                    While Oracle does not explicitly endorse or vouch for any of these, third party open source package repositories I know of that support Solaris include:

                    • 7. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                      3247478

                      899664 wrote:

                       

                      There are some barriers in Oracle Solaris 11.4 that hinders a "it just work" experience. For me a missing mc is one of them.

                       

                      Luckily midnight commander is just copy and run so you can install it on a former release of Solaris (or even a fork) and copy the needed files over. Much easier than trying to compile or to find a repository that works with Solaris. You can for example download http://openzfs.hfg-gmuend.de/midnight_commander/mc-4.8.19.zip, unzip, copy the files to / and make the binary /usr/bin/mc executable.

                      You know .. people have been using package management software to avoid situation for example to not be informed that something may stop working because some SONAME dependencies may be broken.

                      2nd: I've been trying to download http://openzfs.hfg-gmuend.de/midnight_commander/mc-4.8.19.zip to check what it is and I was unable to download it.

                      And 3rd: latest version of the mc it is 4.8.20.

                      • 8. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                        3247478

                        Alanc-Oracle wrote:

                         

                        It was dropped because it was not considered essential enough to make it a high priority, and fell below the line when we were forced to evaluate what packages to keep or drop after last year's reduction in staff. It's not something we've heard is a requirement from customers who reach out via their sales reps or engineering contacts.

                        So no problems with for example upgrade to latest version or just recompile with new dev tooling, or no other known problems on Solaris .. just "because it was not considered essential enough to make it a high priority"???

                         

                         

                        I'm 100% sure that even update to latest 4.8.20 will not be more complicated than just bump version - > download new source tarball -> update checksum of the source tar ball in packages build framework -> rebuild package and publish it to repo.

                        Does it look like "high priority"?

                         

                        I fully understand that Solaris dev stuff is shrinking and/or it needs to be allocare to handle some SRs of some customers which have "serious needs".

                        Problem only is that because Oracle is cutting man/hours time dedicated not only to update packages but even to rebuild packages to provide everything with at least correct SONAME dependencies on IPS layer .. it is like cutting the branch on which Oracle is sitting.

                         

                        As long as building some "not essential" software will be not done with full synchronisation of other "essential" packages changes you are forcing to spend more and more time by end users to build more and more software.

                         

                        It is some well know sentence about documentation: “Documentation is like sex; when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's better than nothing”.

                        You can change in above s/Documentation/Packaged software/ and sill it will be truth.

                         

                        In all Linux distributions with more than few thousands packages it is obvious that within such set some software may not be working perfectly or may not work at all. However as build packages framework some volunteer may try to investigate the issue, fix it and send fix to integrate with whole distribution.

                        Such possibility in case of Oracle Solaris completely does not exist ..

                         

                        More .. even all Linux distros support providers are prioritizing what and when will be fixed and it is obvious that if someone will find some issue in package like mc it may be hanging for quite long time in tickets queue. However no one will try to remove it from any distribution (despite fact that there is no any known issues with mc when it is used on Oracle Solaris).

                        Maybe this lesson as well needs to be learned by Oracle as well?

                        How to provide some packages which are not "essential" (whatever it means) and not simple just kick more and more software out of distribution and leave users with literally nothing?

                         

                        For example mc is already in set of packages provided in Oracle Linux.

                        If it will be possible to reuse build procedures described in rpm spec files using improved pkgtool it would be possible to share some Oracle dev resources to build Linux and Oracle Solaris packages using the same input resources.

                        I think that someone in Oracle should try to answer the question: how much it would be possible to extend Oracle Solaris customers base if Solaris will be  provided with similar set of packages as Oracle Linux right now?

                        I'm not asking to have everything perfectly working but it should be some gray area of some packages which as they are compiling and not crashing instantly they still should be provided if not in this "essential" set than in some additional IPS repo.

                        • 9. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                          Scott S.

                          Just as note I was able to download this from http://openzfs.hfg-gmuend.de/midnight_commander/mc-4.8.19.zip  then made the binary executable and it works no problem for me. Simple wget, unzip then chmod in my case.

                          An interesting viewpoint with OL and Sol. That to me sounds like it could work and make things a bit easier. It does seem like quite a black and white approach to completely drop support of some useful packages so perhaps their could be some separate publisher IPS repo with those packages and it would be accepted by the client side that these are not officially supported maybe. After all we have a beta publisher which is explicit about the fact it is beta thus could be unstable. Alanc-Oracle appreciate the tricky situation this is and you can see from both sides whereas we are only seeing from outside of Oracle as to what is happening. "we were forced". Same time although mc may be low priority, the maintenance of the package would be considered low if it is "I'm 100% sure that even update to latest 4.8.20 will not be more complicated than just bump version - > download new source tarball -> update checksum of the source tar ball in packages build framework -> rebuild package and publish it to repo." so perhaps this should also be taken into account with determining which packages to officially support.

                          • 10. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                            Alanc-Oracle

                            3247478 wrote:

                             

                            I'm 100% sure that even update to latest 4.8.20 will not be more complicated than just bump version - > download new source tarball -> update checksum of the source tar ball in packages build framework -> rebuild package and publish it to repo.

                            Does it look like "high priority"?

                            Priority is not a measure of how hard it is to update, but of how important it is.  No other package we ship depends on mc and no customer has said it's a requirement for their use, so it became one of many packages we dropped in this release.

                            Oracle's evaluations were not just made on the cost of a one time update, but in all the work necessary to include a package in an enterprise distro - ongoing monitoring of upstream, legal reviews of licenses, ensuring it meets our corporate security requirements, being able to respond to service requests, etc. - and not just once, but for the support life of the release.  No one was happy about the choices that were made, but the choices had to be made nonetheless.

                            Problem only is that because Oracle is cutting man/hours time dedicated not only to update packages but even to rebuild packages to provide everything with at least correct SONAME dependencies on IPS layer .. it is like cutting the branch on which Oracle is sitting.

                            Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "SONAME dependencies on IPS layer" - SONAME dependencies are listed in ELF binaries, and the IPS pkgdepend command follows those to autogenerate dependencies on the packages that deliver them.

                            If it will be possible to reuse build procedures described in rpm spec files using improved pkgtool it would be possible to share some Oracle dev resources to build Linux and Oracle Solaris packages using the same input resources.

                            We tried that with pkgbuild after the Oracle acquistion.  It didn't work.  Generally, anything in common was in the upstream package, and the RPM's had customizations to integrate with the Linux distro that weren't appropriate for Solaris, and didn't contain what was needed to integrate with Solaris or follow Solaris policies.  Also, the Linux RPMs were updated according to the RHEL release schedule which was not aligned with the Solaris release schedule at all.  It ended up being more work and worse results so we cancelled that project after a couple of years.

                            I think that someone in Oracle should try to answer the question: how much it would be possible to extend Oracle Solaris customers base if Solaris will be provided with similar set of packages as Oracle Linux right now?

                            We tried going in that direction for a decade.  We proved the answer is "not enough to matter".  Thanks for the enthusiasm and support, but the decisions here were put in motion long ago.  Since you like quotes, perhaps you will appreciate this one:  "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

                            • 11. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                              tmuehle

                              We PCP customers were asked if we believe that mc would be of any importance or needed or in use.

                              The obvious result was: "get rid of it". And to be honest, until now, I didn't "know" anyone who still uses mc.

                              • 12. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                                Scott S.

                                Ok. A few people it would seem. Without the use of a text based file browser it'll be slower to do quite a few things, unless others are available instead.

                                • 13. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                                  899664

                                  As mc is not in the current Solaris 11.4 repository, you can use my online installer

                                  (start the installer as user root from folder /root):

                                   

                                  wget -O - www.napp-it.org/midnight_commander  | perl

                                   

                                   

                                  If midnight commander does not show correct borders in Putty:

                                  - open Putty settings Window > Translation: modify ex from UTF-8 to ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1, West Europe)

                                  - reconnect

                                  • 14. Re: Solaris 11.4 Beta Refresh testing
                                    Alanc-Oracle

                                    While Oracle is no longer providing mc in the Solaris package repository, there's no reason it shouldn't work if you build from source yourself or install from a third party package repository, so you don't have to give it up, just do a bit more work to get it installed on your system.   We'll never provide 100% of the software people want in the OS itself - that's what ISV's, layered applications, and other 3rd party software providers are for.