1 2 Previous Next 20 Replies Latest reply on May 27, 2010 7:12 AM by 775554

    ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX

    538097
      Does anybody try ASP.NET AJAX? What is better? It seems that ASP.NET AJAX more flexible? What is the advantages and disadvantages of both?

      Best Regards, Kostya Proskudin!
        • 1. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
          173928
          Kostya,
          neither one is better. It's all down to money/preference/background of decision makers.
          • 2. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
            John Edward Scott
            It seems that ASP.NET AJAX more flexible?
            More flexible in what way? How are you qualifying this statement?
            • 3. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
              Earl Lewis
              Kostya,

              ASP.NET generally leads you down a path where you end up forcing users to install ActiveX components if you want to do anything complex or fancy. This is usually because it's much easier to find some ActiveX that does a specialized task than it would be to write that component by yourself. Forcing people to use ActiveX can be undesireable for a couple reasons; first, users would need to use IE to view the web pages; second, some users are very suspicious of installing anything required from a web page, so you might turn people away from the site after they've found it.

              A friend of mine is developing a web site for his family business (they build cabinets and custom walk-in closets in Norway) and he went the ASP.NET route and his web applications require the user to install the entire .NET framework. This can be a real turn-off for some people as well.

              Either one of these cases would require the user to run Javascript, since the 'J' in AJAX stands for Javascript. I just recently deployed an application in ApEx where I got some resistance to forcing the users to have Javascript enabled. But that came from an ultra-sensitive (paranoid?) security guy. Go figure.

              Based on my experience with both technologies, I think ApEx gets you up and running much faster, and can be less objectionable to users that are concerned with security/privacy.

              As alway, just my .02 (2 cents)!

              Earl
              • 4. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                538097
                It would be greate if ApEx has some good features of ASP.NET AJAX, for example something like Visual Web Developer in Microsoft. And it would be greate to have possibility to create and add my own items to ApEx.

                Best Regards, Kostya Proskudin!
                • 5. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                  357241
                  Hello,

                  Visual Web Developer is a desktop tool APEX lives in the browser so it's a different world, not to say it has features that would be useful and we might implement/borrow/study but the context is different.

                  You can always integrate in any number of third party javascript libraries to get prebuilt widgets if thats what your looking for.

                  http://dojotoolkit.org/
                  http://script.aculo.us/
                  http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/
                  http://www.prototypejs.org/


                  Carl
                  • 6. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                    Earl Lewis
                    It would be greate if ApEx has some good features of
                    ASP.NET AJAX, for example something like Visual Web
                    Developer in Microsoft.
                    I don't know what that is, but Carl is right, it's a different context and different kind of toolset.
                    And it would be greate to
                    have possibility to create and add my own items to
                    ApEx.
                    What kind of items do you want to add in ApEx that you can't? There is a very limited set of HTML elements that are even possible and I believe that ApEx pretty much covers them all. I'd be interested to know exactly what it is you want to do that ApEx can't do for you. Can you elucidate?

                    Earl
                    • 7. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                      VANJ
                      Earl: Traditional HTML form elements are indeed just a handful and APEX supports all of them. But that is so 1995! :-)

                      The so-called Web 2.0 is raising expectations of what is possible even in web-based applications.

                      See http://www.turboajax.com/products/turbowidgets
                      http://www.turboajax.com/products/turbowidgets/examples/

                      As Carl said, it is definitely possible to use any of the numerous high-quality client-side libraries out there and integrate them into APEX.
                      • 8. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                        Earl Lewis
                        That was really my point. I don't know of anything that you can't do with ApEx that you might need to with any modern web app, even considering the so-called web 2.0 stuff. We all know that ApEx is fully capable of doing AJAX just fine.

                        Earl
                        • 9. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                          538097
                          What kind of items do you want to add in ApEx that you can't?
                          For example I want to implement some AJAX control that Carl posted, to regular ApEx wizard. I can save much time due to it.

                          About Win32 Web Developer Tool.
                          I think that it might can be a nice feature. Just Imagine that I have the possibility to create ApEx Application in Web Browser and in some "win 32 web Developer". It would be a perfect opponent for Microsoft.
                          I agree that it is different context. But I know that it's possible to create it.
                          Advantages of thick developer tool:
                          - You would save a lot of time when you write difficult SQL Statement due to code completion and syntax highlighter.
                          - You would save time while previewing you pages. (You just switch you workspace to design view, instead of running application).
                          - You forget about some DML error that appears by itself in ApEx (e.g. accidentally double click on submit button).
                          - You would have the possibility easily develop standalone pages using HTML code completion and highlighter.
                          - You can add new items to hot paste.
                          - You would have ......

                          I can invent new features for Win32 Developer tool more and more, that ApEx wouldn't never had because of its web architecture.

                          The main idea of my thoughts is that It would be greate if I can develop my application both in Web Browser and in "Win32 Web Developer Tool". Developing in last you would save much time while developing and debugging.
                          I agree that If I create a simple application (e.g. web shop, forum etc) "Web32 Web Developere" would be redundant, but If I have to create industrial application with difficult logic, it would save me much time (at least 40%).

                          Best Regards, Kostya Proskudin!
                          • 10. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                            EddieR
                            You would save a lot of time when you write difficult SQL Statement due to
                            code completion and syntax highlighter.
                            Maintain views, packages etc in sqldeveoper or toad. For html, javascript and queries or anonymous blocks within the application, copy the code to your favourite editor.
                            You would save time while previewing you pages. (You just switch
                            you workspace to design view, instead of running application).
                            Use 2 browser windows (or tabs), one for the development, one for the application.
                            You forget about some DML error that appears by itself in ApEx (e.g.
                            accidentally double click on submit button).
                            You get that problem anywhere.
                            You would have the possibility easily develop standalone pages using HTML
                            code completion and highlighter.
                            Use another editor and copy the code back into the app.
                            You can add new items to hot paste.
                            Ok, copying items is quite slow.
                            You have to install a win32 application on every laptop/desktop, make
                            sure everyone's on the same version and that the licences are in place.
                            Ummm, you forgot that one.


                            Jim
                            • 11. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                              538097
                              That's why I'm taking about saving time. I have to waste a lot of time file switching from one editor to another. I have a lot of opened windows. etc.
                              You have to install a win32 application on every laptop/desktop, make
                              sure everyone's on the same version and that the licences are in place.
                              It's not necessary for everyone, only for those who wish it and it's necessary for him.

                              Kostya
                              • 12. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                                369783
                                Kostya,

                                You may have some valid points from your point of view for the work you do.

                                However, I agree with the previous post for my work, and while my app isn't "industrial", it is rather complicated.

                                My office computer that I use (even when I work from home, I connect to via VPN), is an old 866 Mhz with 1 GB RAM. Looking at my task bar now, I have 2 Notepad sessions, TOAD, the standalone Enterprise Manager (java), Windows Explorer, Firefox (with 2 tabs), a Remote Desktop Connection to the Server, SQL Developer, and 7 IE windows, with a total of 17 tabs open, plus since I'm at home, the machine is also handling this remote connection.

                                The only apps I have that "seem" to have performance problems are the java apps (enterprise manager and SQL Developer), though even with just a couple applications they're slow anyway. I don't have any performance problems or waste any time copying and pasting between windows for the various tasks I'm doing. To me, it's just a matter of using the most appropriate tool for the particular task I need/want to do at that particular time.

                                Trying to get all that functionality into a web browser would almost require a java app, which I am definately not very fond of, and yet another java app would be yet something else that would run slower.

                                The non-java apps and the various web pages I'm running or browsing run just fine and I can switch between them at will without any performance problems.

                                I'd be rather loathe to try and use yet something else that would be touted as the master interface for all. TOAD and SQL Developer are real similar in what they do and designed to accomplish the same things, but I still switch back and forth between them depending on what I'm trying to accomplish at that particular time, as I like the "capabilities" of one or the other for different tasks.

                                For HTML or css type "stuff", I use Evrsoft's First Page 2006, though I usually don't have that open very often.

                                I like the way I operate, with the multitude of various windows and apps, as I'm a big proponent of cut and paste coding, taking something that works well in one app and re-using it with minor changes in another place. Sometimes I need pieces from several locations, and this setup allows me to easily jump around to the various places the code may reside, compile it into one place, and then test it in another window or two without as much back and forth page navigation.

                                I suppose being ADHD doesn't help either, but it seems to work fine for me.

                                Just my .02 worth. Again though, you probably have valid reasons for what you are trying to do and how you're accustomed to working.

                                Bill Ferguson
                                • 13. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                                  357241
                                  Hello,

                                  >>
                                  About Win32 Web Developer Tool.
                                  >>

                                  But what about all us poor folks on Linux (like me) or Macs? Or if your at a clients office and they don't want you installing extra software.

                                  >>
                                  I think that it might can be a nice feature. Just Imagine that I have the possibility to create ApEx Application in Web Browser and in some "win 32 web Developer". It would be a perfect opponent for Microsoft.
                                  >>

                                  Everything you've asked for is in one or more thick clients on different oS's with different feature sets for different development types.

                                  Take just editing HTML for instance you have your Dreamweaver people, HTMLKit people, Fireworks people, people that use vi (sorry there is not much hope for the emacs folks). Yes there is some cutting and pasting involved they have the ability to use whatever tool is right for the job and they are comfortable with.

                                  And finally it would split development effort, as with any software project there are limit resources and time (yes amazingly even with APEX) and it seems (to me) a better use of time to continue to refine and extend the web based experience and features of APEX than to start having to chase Windows versions and patch sets or whatever else Microsoft would to throw at us to break things, is hard enough making things works right in Internet Explorer.

                                  These opinions are all my own and if I have to build in MFC or Avalon or Silverlight or whatever language MS is pushing on us today I will.

                                  That being said put it on the 3.1 enhancement thread and your wish will get noted.

                                  Carl
                                  • 14. Re: ApEx vs ASP.NET AJAX
                                    Earl Lewis
                                    What kind of items do you want to add in ApEx that
                                    you can't?

                                    For example I want to implement some AJAX control
                                    that Carl posted, to regular ApEx wizard. I can save
                                    much time due to it.
                                    So you want to make an "AJAX component" that you can just plug in to ApEx?
                                    About Win32 Web Developer Tool.

                                    Advantages of thick developer tool:
                                    - You would save a lot of time when you write
                                    difficult SQL Statement due to code completion and
                                    syntax highlighter.
                                    I use Oracle SQL Developer for complex stuff. It give my syntax highlighting, code completion (if you want it) and allows you to perform debugging with breakpoints and watch values. I use the ApEx SQL Commands UI for the quick/dirty stuff if I'm already in ApEx. If I happen to be working in SQL Developer then I use the SQL Developer SQL command window.
                                    - You would save time while previewing you pages.
                                    I've worked out a routine with the tabbed browsers where I'll keep several tabs open for design time stuff and another tab or two with the running versions of the pages. I commit my changes on the design time tab, switch tabs to the runtime page and refresh the page. Works pretty well for me.
                                    (You just switch you workspace to design view,
                                    instead of running application).
                                    - You forget about some DML error that appears by
                                    itself in ApEx (e.g. accidentally double click on
                                    submit button).
                                    - You would have the possibility easily develop
                                    standalone pages using HTML code completion and
                                    highlighter.
                                    - You can add new items to hot paste.
                                    - You would have ......

                                    I can invent new features for Win32 Developer tool
                                    more and more, that ApEx wouldn't never had because
                                    of its web architecture.

                                    The main idea of my thoughts is that It would be
                                    greate if I can develop my application both in Web
                                    Browser and in "Win32 Web Developer Tool". Developing
                                    in last you would save much time while developing and
                                    debugging.
                                    I agree that If I create a simple application (e.g.
                                    web shop, forum etc) "Web32 Web Developere" would be
                                    redundant, but If I have to create industrial
                                    application with difficult logic, it would save me
                                    much time (at least 40%).
                                    In the end, we all need to pick the tools that work best for us and for the projects that we're working on. If your company is an ASP shop then you need to use tools for ASP. ApEx does what it does with Oracle based web applications quite well. If I happen to fall into an ASP project someday in the future, I'll have to put ApEx away (low sobbing) for the time being and focus on the tools that help get that project done most effectively.

                                    This is a really important point to remember. You can't pick your tools irrespective of the project or company. The project, the company and the IT infrastructure generally dictate what technologies will be used and which tools you'll need to use to complete the project.

                                    Earl
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