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      • 60. Re: My thoughts on OCP
        108476
        I mean, you were the instructor, certainly that lady was not at all interested in learning from whoever was the instructor.
        Yeah, but no matter how good you teach, it's hard to compete with Lesbo porn:

        http://www.dba-oracle.com/images/redneck_smoke.jpg
        • 61. Re: My thoughts on OCP
          Aman....
          Don,
          ROTFL
          Aman....
          • 62. Re: My thoughts on OCP
            Hans Forbrich
            You cannot be a good instructor without practical
            knowledge, but you cannot become a good consultant
            without the theorical knowledge.
            For what it's worth, I concur.

            I've around Oracle product since 1984, just about every role from developer, thru DB, to architect and consultant. I spend a lot of time these days teaching Oracle University material - usually the advanced courses as there are too many 'powerpoint instructors' who will handle the "intro to DBA" for far less money than I will.

            I think Oracle has the right idea with the Hands-On requirement. It is one of the very few methods of exposing the excessively stubborn community to the value-add that differentiates Oracle from the typical commodity database. The problem is that the idea and the implementation may not match up.

            That said, I also believe that the base price for Oracle courses is way to high. Cut the price in half, get twice as many people in and get good instructors to train them properly (thinking about your MAA comment).
            • 63. Re: My thoughts on OCP
              Hans Forbrich
              Yeah, but no matter how good you teach, it's hard to
              compete with Lesbo porn:
              I take it from the slanted comment that you have no problem competing with the other kind[s]?
              • 64. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                Aman....
                Feancisco,
                was told from Oracle the same that Burleson said, only official training on Oracle University. I told my guys to try, when connect to prometric page to request the Hands on approval, they wrote that received the training from a OPN member and the instructor was a OCP, then 48 hours later all got their Hands on approved, without any further question.
                Cool.That's a new thing for me and I guess the point which clicked in was the partener conducting the program.Not sure that how much OCP instructor counts but as much little I know about OU rules, Oracle partener training counts as HOC requirement.They didn't ammend the rule.Its the same rule.But thanks alot for putting it out.
                the cost and the quality of the course on Oracle University are very poor.
                Hmm cost is poor?Nah ;-). Anyways Madrid has explained all the things and probably in a more better way than I was going to do.I am not sure about US continent as I have not been there but in South East Asia, there alot of very good OU instructors who really try out very hard that when they speak some thing,say a statement,it should be practically applicable and not just a slide read.I was going to point you for the same thing that don't give a generic opinion that all the OU instrucotrs are bad.As the sameis said for the partener instructors too ;).But it all depends on the instructor.Venue matters the least.It can be OU,can be a partener but what matters is the person who is standing and saying things.I know 3 instructors in India who are called the best in India training.One is an OCM even.I believe on this thing that if one takes training profession seriously ,its much harder than just go and deliever a program.With different minds sitting every week and ever changing technology,its realy hard to cope up with the challenges of it.As Madrid mentioned that he maintains a balance in teh consulting or practical world with the training,this is the "key" which an instructor has to do.And I have seen the same thing what Madrid mentioned,alot of "practical dbas" have no idea about SCN, checkpoint,never touched RMAN as export/import ,according to them is the backup "nirvana".And I hate this thing when their logic nbehind what ever they say is that we are from "real world".
                I shall not be saying anything further as I guess Iam just repeating which Madrid has already said.I shall just say that there are both good,bad and best people in all the fields/professions.
                My 10 cents:-)
                Regards
                Aman....
                • 65. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                  Madrid
                  Public Image consultants say it is very important the 'How it looks' when it is supported by the 'What it is made of'. May be If you would have taught that particular class with the dress code you have expossed on your redneck smoke photograph link, certainly that class it would have more attractive for that lady than her lesbo sites.

                  When my wife saw that photograph, some months ago, she asked me, is this the burleson you told me that dresses like the lawyers of 'the law and the order'? And I said, it is the photograph of a professional that after several years has developed the difficult ability to be able to laugh of himself and still preserves the 'What is made of'.
                  • 66. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                    F.Munoz Alvarez
                    Dear Aman,

                    I think you did not saw this post:

                    "Dear Madrid,

                    Sorry for this, my intention was not generalize, I still giving classes for OU, I agree with you, we have some exceptions to this rule, but been honest I know several OU instructors oin US, Chile, Brazil, NZ, Argentina, Peru, Mexico, and sorry but they only dedicate their lives being a instructor with a minimal practical experience, and if they had some, will be like DBOs. People like you, me, and several others DBAs are trying to change this situation, that's why we are here using this Forum to try to help other people.

                    Cheers,

                    Francisco Munoz ALvarez "
                    My 10cents: I'm also a OCM
                    • 67. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                      Madrid
                      The costs are pretty expensive, and may be Oracle has not realized about the emerging competence in the training area. There are other centers who make their own notes and offer the course for less. I am not certain about their quality, since creating a good manual for any course is a very hard task to achieve.

                      The training material oracle offers is of a superior quality, on the slides the topics are very well pointed out and the student notes are a very good complement for off class reinforcement. IMO the contents is more readable if compared with the reference manuals, which are not meant to be progressive and are not meant to be didactical.

                      The idea of cutting the price to the half and doubling the course audience should be considered by Oracle University. In spanish if you reverse the word Oracle it will read 'El Caro' (The expensive), among spanish speakers this is what Oracle means in several ways. But it is part of the financial success of Oracle, and a good product cannot be cheap. May be people who promotes Oracle courses doesn't feel the need to lower the prices, may be 'Offer and Demand Law' still favours Oracle in this area.

                      On the other hand when the Maximum Availability Architecture -MAA- comes to the scence, I have met DBA's who doesn't even remotely have structured the idea.


                      ~ Madrid
                      http://hrivera99.oracle.com
                      • 68. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                        Madrid
                        Congratulations, then you also belong to this strange kind of OCM nerd-individuals who have taken this keen technical challenge and have survived to tell. It is struggling to the extreme, but certainly it is greatly rewarding.

                        If people consider expensive the OCP credential, just let's take a look at the OCM, the requirements and cost of the exam. It was the first time I had to pay to someone else -named the oc program- to intensively hit me in the head several times and with particular joy, to the extreme -technically speaking-


                        Regards.
                        • 69. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                          F.Munoz Alvarez
                          Thank you Madrid. The cost are realy hight. Also some OCP programs you need to take 2 o 3 tests increasing a lot the price of it.

                          The other problem with the OCA and OCP tests are the questions, you can found several people selling the test answers. With this kind of situation you can't trust all the people certified in the market. I like the Microsoft certification process, they have the multiple answer questions and a simulation practical test also.

                          Regards,

                          Francisco Munoz Alvarez

                          null
                          • 70. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                            Aman....
                            Franciso,
                            No I guess you got it wrong.I did read the response that's why I said "I was going to say that that don't generalize". I read your reply already.That's why I didn't mention that Fransicso don't give an opinion which may not fit to all as you already made clear that you were not doing that :-).
                            I amnot an OCM(yet) but just thought only 2 cents all the time are not fair ;-).
                            Best regards
                            Aman....
                            • 71. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                              F.Munoz Alvarez
                              Dear Aman

                              Sorry, I took that wrong. Please accept my apologies.

                              Cheers,

                              Francisco Munoz Alvarez
                              • 72. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                546612
                                The costs are pretty expensive, and may be Oracle has
                                not realized about the emerging competence in the
                                training area. There are other centers who make
                                their own notes and offer the course for less. I am
                                not certain about their quality, since creating a
                                good manual for any course is a very hard task to
                                achieve.
                                I have evaluated at some of the competing material ... any 'powerpoint instructor' would be asked for a refund.

                                I am sure there is some good stuff out there, but the only courses I have seen (attended or evaluated) that are worth paying for were written by the instructor (Jonathan Lewis for one), by Oracle University and by Sun Microsystems Education Services.

                                ... <snip> ...

                                >
                                The idea of cutting the price to the half and
                                doubling the course audience should be considered by
                                Oracle University. In spanish if you reverse the
                                word Oracle it will read 'El Caro' (The expensive),
                                among spanish speakers this is what Oracle means in
                                several ways. But it is part of the financial
                                success of Oracle, and a good product cannot be
                                cheap. May be people who promotes Oracle courses
                                doesn't feel the need to lower the prices, may be
                                'Offer and Demand Law' still favours Oracle in this area.
                                I'd heard a comment by one of the product executives (years ago, when I worked for them). Paraphrased: "we'll charge top dollar and deliver top value". Yet organizations so desperately want to use Oracle product as commodity items. This lack of understanding and knowledge is what makes Oracle so expensive - as I've blogged.

                                The apparent oxymoron here is that (I believe) dropping the cost of Oracle Education would increase sales of the product. Again, the supply.demand curve, but working on changing the demand vector for the corporation rather than the division.

                                >
                                On the other hand when the Maximum Availability
                                Architecture -MAA- comes to the science, I have met
                                DBA's who doesn't even remotely have structured the
                                idea.
                                <g>

                                Salutations, and thanks
                                /Hans
                                • 73. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                  Aman....
                                  Francisco,
                                  Sorry, I took that wrong. Please accept my apologies.
                                  Please,don't mention it.Its nothing and I certainly didn't mean to say that you were wrong.I just wanted to clarify myself that I took you wrong in the first place but you cleared your point.
                                  Best regards
                                  Aman....
                                  • 74. Re: My thoughts on OCP
                                    damorgan
                                    My only comment is that Oracle University courses are not targeted at people with intermediate or advanced skills and they are not targeted at what is often the most critical skill ... installing and deploying the product.

                                    Thus for many organizations they don't develop the required competency.

                                    Classes such as you and I teach, hands-on, are where the value is.
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